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Old 08-18-2022, 04:44 PM   #51
K3rm1tth3fr0g
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Originally Posted by Tom400CFI View Post
The quotes...are your quotes.
Some are - some were chopped up and fudged a bit

Funny to criticize me for editing when you literally posted your reply as a quote reply multiple times and had to fix it
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Old 08-18-2022, 05:36 PM   #52
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Yeah, I agree. ^That^ garbage made as much sense as the rest of your posts.



So...how many miles you get out of your Subie?
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Old 08-18-2022, 05:45 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Tom400CFI View Post
The take-away here, is that you failed to define "lugging" by using gearing to make that definition.

So, once again, Lugging isn't an actual problem. It's a problem in YOUR head...a psychological problem, not an actual one. But...to my response above, you come back with THIS!??

My only question remaining is:
What if we had a flat four, but stamped on it V4, and while we were building the flat four we talked about how it was a V4 so the engine would think it was in a different configuration than it actually was in?
Could we trick it and get it to follow different fundamentals than every other internal combustion engine or would it just know to have LSPI problems?
I think you guys might be talking past each other. Let's say the engine is blind to what gear it's in, which seems to be your point. It's only going to see force, which varies with gearing. On a dyno, the force is calibrated to let the engine accelerate at a certain rate -- it's going to move through the rpms pretty quickly.

Where you seem to be talking past each other is defining which rpms are defined as "lugging." I don't think that flooring an EJ20 is going to create problems at 1000-2000 rpm in any gear. But if you floor it close to boost threshold, it's going to build boost to peak torque and go, creating a lot of pressure and heat. In 1st gear, generally this happens quickly. We can look at the extreme, however, where the car is floored at this threshold in a high enough gear that it really does not pick up speed for quite some time, perhaps several seconds at this peak heat/pressure. To me that's lugging, but it's certainly not happening at 1000 rpm. if the computer pulls timing at this point, it's not going to be because it knows what gear the car's in.

I still have fond memories of the days driving my dad's 1967 Dodge Coronet, where if you floored it in a low gear, say while towing, the distributor would advance the timing due to vacuum, and the car would sound like a Buddy Rich solo.
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Old 08-18-2022, 06:24 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Dave D. View Post
Where you seem to be talking past each other is defining which rpms are defined as "lugging."
I defined it as a psychological issue...not a real one, on today's engines. You're dad's '67 Coronet...different story.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave D. View Post
We can look at the extreme, however, where the car is floored at this threshold in a high enough gear that it really does not pick up speed for quite some time, perhaps several seconds at this peak heat/pressure. To me that's lugging, but it's certainly not happening at 1000 rpm. if the computer pulls timing at this point, it's not going to be because it knows what gear the car's in
I agree that this is the hardest point on the motor or close to it. High cylinder pressure. However, I think any motor built after the late '80's or early '90's should come with sufficient engineering (stout enough parts) good enough lubrication and cooling and conservative tuning to allow extended running under that condition. To the extent that no owner needs to "worry about flooring it in 4th gear".
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Old 08-18-2022, 08:28 PM   #55
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JFC, this thread.

To start, pre-ignition is premature combustion before spark and detonation is uncontrolled/spontaneous combustion after spark. Both are not great for your engine life but pre-ignition is much worse for a few reasons. Pre-ignition produces much higher pressure spikes, is much harder to predict, and can't be tuned/compensated for using timing.

Low speed pre-ignition is 100% an issue when lugging an engine but it mainly effects small displacement, direct injection, turbo engines. To say no modern engines suffer from "lugging" is just false when there have been studies on LSPI on DI turbo-engines. Now LSPI is a much bigger issue for our fa brethren, our port injection ejs do not suffer from it nearly as much but it is still a possibility.

Lets talk about lugging next. Attaching an rpm threshold to what is and isn't lugging is just silly, instead we should be looking at load. Lugging can be thought of anytime we have low engine speed and high load (WOT). Think about if you're on a bike in a high gear, if you're stopped or moving slowly, its going to take a lot more torque (load) for you to get the bike moving than if you were already moving or in a lower gear. Its the same with cars, you can even demand more load out of your engine than what it is capable of providing (based on what gear you're in, the incline of the road, how fast you're going, etc)

Low speed high load situations create a lot of heat and this heat is what can cause pre-ignition (and/or detonation) to occur. Notice how I said can, not will. If any pre-ign or det occurs, its also not likely to immediately blow up your engine but it could over time. The reason this is more likely to occur at a low rpm in an ej compared to a v8 or v6 is purely because of torque (or lack there of) down low. Peak engine efficiency occurs very closely to peak torque, the less inefficiency there is, the less heat overall is generated. More torque down low also means you're less likely to be able to demand more out of your car than the engine is capable of providing.

There is also the oiling side of things, if you mash on your throttle at low rpm, you end up hammering your bearings due to having low oil pressure and high load on the crankshaft. Theres a unitless number called the Sommerfield number that is used in lubrication analysis. The equation has load in the denominator and speed is in the numerator, low speed high load results in a lower Sommerfield number which could mean you're not getting enough lubrication.

Now does any of this mean you're engine will immediately explode if you "lug" it, probably not. However I see no reason to subject my car to repeated low speed high load scenarios, if I want to accelerate quickly, I'll just downshift.

If this is too rambley, too bad. Used up all my brain power during work where I get paid to be smart.
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Old 08-18-2022, 08:29 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Tom400CFI View Post
I defined it as a psychological issue...not a real one, on today's engines. You're dad's '67 Coronet...different story.



I agree that this is the hardest point on the motor or close to it. High cylinder pressure. However, I think any motor built after the late '80's or early '90's should come with sufficient engineering (stout enough parts) good enough lubrication and cooling and conservative tuning to allow extended running under that condition. To the extent that no owner needs to "worry about flooring it in 4th gear".
Ring lands is all I have to say about this
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Old 08-18-2022, 09:19 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Electrin View Post
JFC, this thread.

To start, pre-ignition is premature combustion before spark and detonation is uncontrolled/spontaneous combustion after spark. Both are not great for your engine life but pre-ignition is much worse for a few reasons. Pre-ignition produces much higher pressure spikes, is much harder to predict, and can't be tuned/compensated for using timing.

Low speed pre-ignition is 100% an issue when lugging an engine but it mainly effects small displacement, direct injection, turbo engines. To say no modern engines suffer from "lugging" is just false when there have been studies on LSPI on DI turbo-engines. Now LSPI is a much bigger issue for our fa brethren, our port injection ejs do not suffer from it nearly as much but it is still a possibility.

Lets talk about lugging next. Attaching an rpm threshold to what is and isn't lugging is just silly, instead we should be looking at load. Lugging can be thought of anytime we have low engine speed and high load (WOT). Think about if you're on a bike in a high gear, if you're stopped or moving slowly, its going to take a lot more torque (load) for you to get the bike moving than if you were already moving or in a lower gear. Its the same with cars, you can even demand more load out of your engine than what it is capable of providing (based on what gear you're in, the incline of the road, how fast you're going, etc)

Low speed high load situations create a lot of heat and this heat is what can cause pre-ignition (and/or detonation) to occur. Notice how I said can, not will. If any pre-ign or det occurs, its also not likely to immediately blow up your engine but it could over time. The reason this is more likely to occur at a low rpm in an ej compared to a v8 or v6 is purely because of torque (or lack there of) down low. Peak engine efficiency occurs very closely to peak torque, the less inefficiency there is, the less heat overall is generated. More torque down low also means you're less likely to be able to demand more out of your car than the engine is capable of providing.

There is also the oiling side of things, if you mash on your throttle at low rpm, you end up hammering your bearings due to having low oil pressure and high load on the crankshaft. Theres a unitless number called the Sommerfield number that is used in lubrication analysis. The equation has load in the denominator and speed is in the numerator, low speed high load results in a lower Sommerfield number which could mean you're not getting enough lubrication.

Now does any of this mean you're engine will immediately explode if you "lug" it, probably not. However I see no reason to subject my car to repeated low speed high load scenarios, if I want to accelerate quickly, I'll just downshift.

If this is too rambley, too bad. Used up all my brain power during work where I get paid to be smart.
Nuanced, well put, and spelled correctly - a rarity around these parts

Last edited by K3rm1tth3fr0g; 08-18-2022 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 08-18-2022, 09:49 PM   #58
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Ring lands is all I have to say about this
Copy that. I guess I'll stick to cars that can tolerate 4th gear WOT. :thumbs:
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Old 08-18-2022, 10:12 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Tom400CFI View Post
Copy that. I guess I'll stick to cars that can tolerate 4th gear WOT. :thumbs:
That was more supposed to be tongue in cheek since the 4th cylinder ring lands are known to go when things get hot and there is knock

I never said EJ powered cars couldn't handle 4th gear wot, I do it all the time in my sti and used to do it in my bugeye.
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Old 08-19-2022, 07:37 AM   #60
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so to summarize, you can't argue with results
(other than CheeseIttheFrog, he can argue with results)
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Old 08-19-2022, 08:42 AM   #61
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Attaching an rpm threshold to what is and isn't lugging is just silly, instead we should be looking at load. Lugging can be thought of anytime we have low engine speed and high load (WOT)
^Facepalm

You literally just said that lugging is high load at low rpm, but DEFINING low rpm would be silly.

yep, we're on the internet.
The ENTIRE basis of this thread is a guy asking when he can use WOT and when he can't, and the reason why.
So the solution is to make assertions without context, define nothing, yet state that is the reason why you can't use WOT at certain engine speeds. . . . .which we won't define.

Now I know why Kermit approved of your response.
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Old 08-19-2022, 10:24 AM   #62
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so to summarize, you can't argue with results
(other than CheeseIttheFrog, he can argue with results)
Yes, your anecdotal commentary is useless

And yes, he said it's better to define lugging via RPM and load VS rpm alone - which is true

Last edited by K3rm1tth3fr0g; 08-19-2022 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 08-19-2022, 10:48 AM   #63
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Yes, your anecdotal commentary is useless

And yes, he said it's better to define lugging via RPM and load VS rpm alone - which is true
First off, why does it seem you edit every single post you make?
Do you type out whatever deflection comes to mind, and then pull a George Costanza and realize an hour later what zinger would have been even better?

"Uhhhhh, yeah, wellllllll, the jerk store called and they're running out of you"
-edit CheeseIt the frog 37 minutes after posting-

Also, he DIDN'T DEFINE ANYTHING
he made assertions with no context and based them on subjective terms
that's the whole point
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Old 08-19-2022, 10:51 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
First off, why does it seem you edit every single post you make?

Do you type out whatever deflection comes to mind, and then pull a George Costanza and realize an hour later what zinger would have been even better?



"Uhhhhh, yeah, wellllllll, the jerk store called and they're running out of you"

-edit CheeseIt the frog 37 minutes after posting-



Also, he DIDN'T DEFINE ANYTHING

he made assertions with no context and based them on subjective terms

that's the whole point
I edited it 7 minutes after posting to correct a typo - it's okay, tell me where the edit button hurt you so you can avoid more on topic discussion
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Old 08-19-2022, 12:07 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by K3rm1tth3fr0g View Post
I edited it 7 minutes after posting to correct a typo - it's okay, tell me where the edit button hurt you so you can avoid more on topic discussion
this topic has been exhausted long ago
Your baseless assertions have been crushed with facts, context and rational interpretation of ICE fundamentals

not all of us were educated on the internet, which is why you are struggling
I do however get where you are at. When I was in my early 20's I also thought I knew it all, but in reality I didn't know enough to know how much I didn't know.
Once I finished building my first car from a bare frame I then realized how much I didn't know when I started and how much more there was to learn.
So no hard feelings, don't give up.
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Old 08-19-2022, 12:20 PM   #66
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Baseless assertions?

You can't refuse to engage with my sources at all, and then call my claims baseless.

You're plugging your ears and then taking a victory lap

Go back and read that Siemens article on torsional vibration at low rpm and then come back and tell me all engines behave the same regardless of configuration.
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Old 08-19-2022, 02:23 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
First off, why does it seem you edit every single post you make?
Do you type out whatever deflection comes to mind, and then pull a George Costanza and realize an hour later what zinger would have been even better?

"Uhhhhh, yeah, wellllllll, the jerk store called and they're running out of you"
-edit CheeseIt the frog 37 minutes after posting-

Also, he DIDN'T DEFINE ANYTHING
he made assertions with no context and based them on subjective terms
that's the whole point
It may be my illiteracy popping up combined with my short zoomer attention span but I didn't see you define anything either and have only talked about how your V8 makes more cylinder pressure and torque down low than an ej therefore you can't lug an ej.

The reason I didn't define anything is because I wanted to avoid a massive post with equations but since apparently I need to fully define things here we go.

SAE International SAE J1979 / ISO 15031-5 (dated: 2014-08-11), calculated engine load is calculated by the following equation:

LOAD_PCT = [current airflow] / [(peak airflow at [email protected] as a function of rpm) * (BARO/29.92) * SQRT(298/(AAT+273))]
Where:

- STP = Standard Temperature and Pressure = 25 C, 29.92 in Hg BARO,
- SQRT = square root
- WOT = wide open throttle
- AAT = Ambient Air Temperature (in C)

Characteristics of LOAD_PCT are:

- Reaches 1.0 at WOT at any altitude, temperature or rpm for both naturally
aspirated and boosted engines.
- Indicates percent of peak available torque.
- Linearly correlated with engine vacuum
- Often used to schedule power enrichment.
- Compression ignition engines (diesels) shall support this PID using fuel
flow in place of airflow for the above calculations.

Below is the calculation for absolute engine load:

LOAD_ABS = [air mass (g / intake stroke)] / [1.184 (g / intake stroke) *
cylinder displacement in liters]

Derivation:

- air mass (g / intake stroke) = [total engine air mass (g/sec)] /
[rpm (revs/min)* (1 min / 60 sec) * (1/2 # of cylinders (strokes / rev)]

- LOAD_ABS = [air mass (g)/intake stroke] / [maximum air mass (g)/intake
stroke at [email protected] at 100% volumetric efficiency] * 100%.

Where:

- STP = Standard Temperature and Pressure = 25 C, 29.92 in Hg (101.3 kPa)
BARO
- WOT = wide open throttle

The quantity (maximum air mass (g)/intake stroke at [email protected] at 100%
volumetric efficiency) is a constant for a given cylinder swept volume.
The constant is 1.184 (g/liter 3) * cylinder displacement (liter 3/intake
stroke) based on air density at STP.

Characteristics of LOAD_ABS are:

- Ranges from 0 to approximately 0.95 for naturally aspirated engines,
0 4 for boosted engines
- Linearly correlated with engine indicated and brake torque,
- Often used to schedule spark and EGR rates,
- Peak value of LOAD_ABS correlates with volumetric efficiency at WOT.
- Indicates the pumping efficiency of the engine for diagnostic purposes.

Once again going WOT at a low engine speed CAN produce a scenario where you are demanding close or demanding more torque than your car can produce at that given rpm which is inefficiency. Max efficiency is at/near max torque an engine is capable of producing, the less torque available for the amount you are demanding, the higher the heat generated and heat can lead to pre-ign and det. Det can be accounted for using timing, pre-ign can not.

Once again, I've only talked about heat so far and not how the bottom end gets hammered and there is the possibility to have insufficient oiling for what you're demanding out of the engine.

The reason I have not given a definite answer for what constitutes "low speed" is because there is a variety of things that go into what a dangerous low speed is, gear you're in, fuel type (e85 and methanal cool more than gasoline), torque curve, incline of the road, direct vs port injection, etc. If you had an egt and cht sensor for each cylinder as well as monitoring your knock, you'd be able to tell when you are pre-ign and/or det as well as tell when you are close or in a dangerous zone.

I could go into more equations and details but this is starting to give me too many flashbacks to heat and mass transfer as well as thermodynamics and I deal with that enough as is during my day job. This thread has also devolved way past the original question.

As I said in my previous response, will lugging an engine immediately blow it up, no. It might not blow it up at all but I personally would not risk it. I don't even see the point of going WOT at 1000 rpm in anything other than first (maybe second) in a turbo ej, there so little torque down there.

OP (is that how we refer to people on here or is that my tiktok reddit zoomer showing again), 4th (as well as 1st) are more than fine to go WOT in. Just feel how the car is responding, if it is sluggish and not accelerating quickly during WOT, probably best to downshift. The main reason I'd avoid WOT in 5th (this will depend on tune as well as what is done to the car) is because you're more likely to overboost which could lead to it own issue.

I am more than open to being proven wrong/changing my mind, you just need to make an argument/bring up research or studies.

This one feels more disjointed then the last but I've been writing this while working so
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Old 08-19-2022, 08:18 PM   #68
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I am more than open to being proven wrong/changing my mind, you just need to make an argument/bring up research or studies.


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Old 08-19-2022, 09:51 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
^Facepalm

You literally just said that lugging is high load at low rpm, but DEFINING low rpm would be silly.

yep, we're on the internet.
The ENTIRE basis of this thread is a guy asking when he can use WOT and when he can't, and the reason why.
So the solution is to make assertions without context, define nothing, yet state that is the reason why you can't use WOT at certain engine speeds. . . . .which we won't define.

Now I know why Kermit approved of your response.
^This^.
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Old 08-19-2022, 09:57 PM   #70
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This
Deflection is a hell of a drug
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Old 08-20-2022, 03:06 PM   #71
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You're the expert on that one! :thumbs:


Electrin, I'd GUESS that RTV900 didn't "define" anything for the simple reason that his position doesn't leave anything to define. I believe his position is that the car can handle WOT in 4th gear just fine. What's left undefined, in that position? :bigears:

Kermy is the one who has dropped a plethora of "criteria" for what he FEELS is not OK, accompanied by a plethora of ambiguous reasons he's mostly made up, that are also undefined. in fact, IIRC, it was RTV900 and I who tried to bring some clarity to the discussion by focusing on a single RPM (1000) as an "extreme" example, and something consistent, and, well...defined. That is very different than:
"At some RPM (won't say what RPM) below....some other RPM(also, a mystery), above some throttle position (anyone's guess?), in certain gears, on some undefined grade....

See the diff?What did RTV900 miss, in his duty to define...anything? Cars can go WOT. That's why the OEM built the gas pedal to go...you know...ALL the way. (more poignant as an example on e-throttled cars). They can do it. I like cars where I can use ALL of the gas pedal, all of the time, in all gears. Fortunately, any/every car I've ever encountered was totally capable of doing that. :yesnod:
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Old 08-20-2022, 03:11 PM   #72
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How do you "demand more tq than your car can produce"?

Don't know that physics agrees with that kind of statement?
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Old 08-20-2022, 03:12 PM   #73
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.....
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Old 08-20-2022, 03:18 PM   #74
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You're the expert on that one! :thumbs:





Electrin, I'd GUESS that RTV900 didn't "define" anything for the simple reason that his position doesn't leave anything to define. I believe his position is that the car can handle WOT in 4th gear just fine. What's left undefined, in that position? :bigears:



Kermy is the one who has dropped a plethora of "criteria" for what he FEELS is not OK, accompanied by a plethora of ambiguous reasons he's mostly made up, that are also undefined. in fact, IIRC, it was RTV900 and I who tried to bring some clarity to the discussion by focusing on a single RPM (1000) as an "extreme" example, and something consistent, and, well...defined. That is very different than:

"At some RPM (won't say what RPM) below....some other RPM(also, a mystery), above some throttle position (anyone's guess?), in certain gears, on some undefined grade....



See the diff?What did RTV900 miss, in his duty to define...anything? Cars can go WOT. That's why the OEM built the gas pedal to go...you know...ALL the way. (more poignant as an example on e-throttled cars). They can do it. I like cars where I can use ALL of the gas pedal, all of the time, in all gears. Fortunately, any/every car I've ever encountered was totally capable of doing that. :yesnod:
Just because you don't like something, and refuse to engage with the material provided, doesn't make it wrong.

Go back and review the thread for my sources and references since you're confused
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Old 08-20-2022, 03:37 PM   #75
Dave D.
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06 Red Ltd.Wagon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom400CFI View Post
How do you "demand more tq than your car can produce"?

Don't know that physics agrees with that kind of statement?
When I'm driving my wife's Crosstrek into a freeway merge. "Come on you dog, speed up!!!"
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