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Old 08-10-2006, 11:43 PM   #1
Gruppe-S
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Default Helix RR500 Final testing results (sorry for the delay)

Hey guys,

I’m very sorry for the delayed response. The testing has been completed for sometime, we just haven’t had time post it up because we have been very very busy.

CONCLUSION:

We are very pleased with the results of the RR500 testing. The original testing cannot be taken into consideration because there was a wastegate flapper issue. This caused some erroneous assumptions for the turbo. Once this problem was resolved, the power curve of the turbo became substantially better as did the response. We see the RR500 as the best choice for a stock location turbo for the STI.

Results – The test car was running 100 octane mixed with 91 octane, for a ~98 octane mix. The boost pressure was increased to about 24-25 psi tapering to 20-21psi at redline. AFR and tune was kept to a very conservative 11.5:1, which given the octane is about what you’d want to run to be conservative on the street. The results are exactly what’d a customer would leave with.

HP: 353whp
TQ: 366wtq

Comparison to the 20G TD06 – The RR500 has a similar spool up to a 20G but has much more top end potential pushing more midrange torque thus resulting in a much flatter and broader horsepower curve. According to the owner of the car, the RR500 feels very similar in terms of response to the TD05-20G (much smaller turbo) which is impressive to say the least. Note the flatter and broader HP curve from 5000rpm

Comparison to the FP Green – The RR500 spools and responds considerably better than an FP Green. Comparing the torque you can see that response and power before 5900RPM is substantially better than the green. This is probably due to the green’s larger and heavier wheels, which hurts performance before 5900RPM but allows for more top end power after 6000RPM. Given the small difference in area from 6000 to redline I would venture to say that running a more aggressive AFR on the RR500 can potentially make up the majority of the difference in power, giving the RR500 a much better area under the curve for a stock block 2.5 STI on 100 octane gas.

Comparison to the SZ55 “Big Boy wheel” – Keeping in mind the RR500 is not a magical turbo, the results are as one would expect from a 55lbs compressor wheel versus the RR500. The RR500 makes less torque and horsepower after 5000rpm. That said one must note the tremendous difference in area under the curve before 5000RPM. My personal opinion is a Subaru owner would be much better served with a GT30R as opposed to the SZ55, as the GT30R offers better spool, much improved boost response, and more top end power potential. The SZ55 doesn't make sense to me, I would either go RR500 or GT30R, unless a stock location turbo was an absolute necessity, in which case I may consider the FP red...

Hope this gives you guys a clear idea of the performance capabilities of the RR500. If the exchange rate holds for the rest of the year (115:1) Helix has agreed to offer the RR500 for the original MSRP of $1199, which should mean a retail of $999. We should be seeing our first shipment mid September.

Thanks for being patient guys!

Cheers,

Gary
Gruppe-S





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Old 08-10-2006, 11:45 PM   #2
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Thorough as hell... as expected from you guys at Gruppe-S. All you impatient ****s
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Old 08-10-2006, 11:50 PM   #3
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mmmm me likey
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Old 08-10-2006, 11:51 PM   #4
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Nice, straight, consistent AFR's. Wonder who did the tuning

Good job guys!
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Old 08-11-2006, 12:04 AM   #5
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Excellent! Since I won't be in the market for a turbo til next year, this is perfect because it'll give the first set of owners to get some mileage on them before I'm ready to buy, to ensure there aren't any issues (ie... Momentum 40T). Thanks a lot Gruppe-s!
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Old 08-11-2006, 12:05 AM   #6
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Wow I didn't realize how laggy the SZ55 really was. Anyways, not to be nit-picky, but were the TD06-20G, Green, and SZ55 all run on ~98 octane mix also? I was going to ask what alky injection would do for this turbo(RR500), but if it's already running on the equivalent of 98 octance, my guess is not too much further. Looks to pack a real solid punch and a nice price, my guess is that it might keep some people from going to a rotated GT30R. Good stuff :thumbsup:

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousDX
Thorough as hell... as expected from you guys at Gruppe-S. All you impatient ****s
Hey, maybe we bumped them along!
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Old 08-11-2006, 12:34 AM   #7
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I just might buy one of these. Looks very good. Thanks for all the info.
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Old 08-11-2006, 12:49 AM   #8
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I think I read that the TD05-20G was the street turbo of choice. Is that still the case?
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Old 08-11-2006, 12:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerculesPeanut
I think I read that the TD05-20G was the street turbo of choice. Is that still the case?
Haha not now. And I would never think that it would be the choice for the street, it just seems to die off much above 5k RPM, the increased lag from the TD06-20G can be tuned out by a good tuner and can show similar spool to a VF39.
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Old 08-11-2006, 12:59 AM   #10
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WRXFactor - We generally let the cars run until the light comes on and then pour in 5 gallons of 100 octane. I *believe* the SZ55 might have been a C16 tune, but can't remember for certain. Alki would be a good comparison to this tune because we didn't lean the AFR's out as far as we could have on race gas. (Alki requires AFR similar to stock). You will probably want to hit 11.0:1 on Alki though, which will leave some power on the table.

Hercules - The TD05 will spool slightly better, but I have yet to see a TD05-20G break 300whp on pump. The power output of the two turbos is substantially different, and considering a VF39 will do about 270-275whp on our dyno, not certain a TD05-20G is worth it.

Cheers,

Gary
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:03 AM   #11
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i think some people are confused.. hercules was talkin about the td05-20g and wrx factor is talkin about td06-20g? sorry to thread jack, but there isnt a big difference between the two besides turbo spool?
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocalKTK
i think some people are confused.. hercules was talkin about the td05-20g and wrx factor is talkin about td06-20g? sorry to thread jack, but there isnt a big difference between the two besides turbo spool?
No way mang, the difference is a slight sacrifice in spool for more power up top. I believe it's a few hundred RPM vs 30+ whp. I was talking about the lack of power the TD05 puts up, and how the TD06-20G, as of right now, is one of the best bolt on turbos for street driving.
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:14 AM   #13
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I thought it was Gruppe-S that made the comment about the TD05-20G being the ultimate street turbo. Perhaps it was an old post and things have changed.
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:21 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerculesPeanut
I thought it was Gruppe-S that made the comment about the TD05-20G being the ultimate street turbo. Perhaps it was an old post and things have changed.
The TD06-20G is a good street turbo. The Helix RR500 is just better. The TD05 on the other hand is for the select few who want more midrange without sacrificing spool and a bit more top end. The TD05 is not a bad turbo, it's just not cost effective when compared to the stock VF39.

Cheers,

Gary
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:22 AM   #15
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Great stuff, but it would also be nice to see pump gas numbers for a "street turbo" - not everyone will go for $60 fill-ups!

Thanks for the update.
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:23 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flycaster
Great stuff, but it would also be nice to see pump gas numbers for a "street turbo" - not everyone will go for $60 fill-ups!

Thanks for the update.
What - I posted on iwsti:

Sorry, we don't have clean 91 octane numbers because of the WG flapper issue. I'll check the dyno logs tomorrow to see if there's anything that looks remotedly reasonable. The RR500 will put down more mid range torque earlier than the FP Green with about the same peak HP, which is about 310-315whp on pump. The reason for this is the larger 8cm^2 hotside and the fact that at 310-315whp you aren't fully utilizing the slightly larger 49lbs wheel. It holds power better up top than a standard td06 20g to the tune of about 5-10whp.

Thanks,

Gary
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:32 AM   #17
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This is supposed to be a steet turbo right? Just wondering when 93 pump gas is going to be tested. Sorry one post to late.
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Old 08-11-2006, 01:49 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HerculesPeanut
I thought it was Gruppe-S that made the comment about the TD05-20G being the ultimate street turbo. Perhaps it was an old post and things have changed.
You are not wrong, someone from Gruppe-S said it was a great turbo in a thread in the 2.5 forums, my guess is that it was a typo, but now I don't think so, I think it was meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruppe-S
You guys are right on with your information. Thanks for spreading the knowledge.

At the moment, the turbine housing will not be offered separately from the turbo.

All of the things you have listed would help improve spool but if you're looking for something that spools faster than stock and still makes more power and torque, you might want to look at the TD05-20G or the TD06-18G. The GT28R (if that's the turbo that you're talking about) doesn't make any power over the VF34. The two other Mitsu turbos listed here sound like the ideal candidates for you. The TD05-20G is quite possibly the best 91 octane street turbo we've ever tested on the STi.

Thanks,

Geoff
It came from this thread: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=967121
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Old 08-11-2006, 02:00 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxfactor
You are not wrong, someone from Gruppe-S said it was a great turbo in a thread in the 2.5 forums, my guess is that it was a typo, but now I don't think so, I think it was meant.



It came from this thread: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=967121
Actually the RR500 was tested on Geoff's car, you may want to ask him for his new opinion.

That said Geoff frequently tracks his car and has literally tested about 10 different turbos so his opinion is definitely with merit. The TD05 was one of the first turbos he tested, it didn't break 300whp on our dyno, but it made decent torque. As I was saying it's a good turbo, but potentially not justifiable in terms of cost benefit and especially once the Cobb AP's were released for the STI allowing customers to run both pump and race gas (remember the Ecutek only days?) on one system.

Cheers,

Gary
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Old 08-11-2006, 02:38 AM   #20
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Haha since it's out in the open, the rr500 definitely feels just like a green with better spool. I've had a green before hand along being in a deadbolt td06 20g and this turbo feels like a mixture of both turbos combined. Thanks for the ride Geoff, and by the way I think his car is for sale with the rr500 in place.

Ron
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Old 08-11-2006, 08:07 AM   #21
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Great info.... Thanks Gruppe-S
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:00 AM   #22
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nice stuff!
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:34 AM   #23
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So when can you ship me one ??? :-D
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Old 08-11-2006, 10:34 AM   #24
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Looks like a very nice turbo.

I am confused about your experiance with the SZ55 though. My external gate SZ60 with the fatboy hot side wheel spooled basically the same as a perrin GT30 (0.86) kit; both were on pump with meth.... same dyno, same tuner.

I wonder why your testing with the 55 has a later spool... Are you comparing it to a 0.63 hot side. Maybe the meth helps the stock location turbos spool quicker?

Blue is the GT30 Red is the SZ60; both at 28 psi.

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Old 08-11-2006, 10:36 AM   #25
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