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Old 09-11-2006, 09:17 PM   #1
cdvma
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Default Relocating IAT sensor

Let the work "begin".



I think that is enough data points to make a very good guess at the IAT curve. I could go hotter easily but colder will be tricky.
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Old 09-11-2006, 10:12 PM   #2
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unfortunately, that doesn't jive with the gm temp sensor.. from the megasquirt manual:

GM Temperature Sensor Resistance

Degrees F
Ohms

-40
100,700

0
25,000

20
13,500

40
7,500

70
3,400

100
1,800

160
450

210
185

guess i'll keep looking!
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Old 09-11-2006, 10:14 PM   #3
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Yea thats pretty far off. I suppose you could make a translator...anything is possible but thats just not worth it.
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Old 09-11-2006, 10:40 PM   #4
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chris, can you post the raw data? i found that one of the key characteristics of a thermistor is beta, which is given by the following formula:

B = ln (R1/R2) / (1/T1 - 1/T2)

also: the characteristic resistance is measured at 25* C, and the beta is often measured between 25 and 50 celcius.

Last edited by ride5000; 09-11-2006 at 10:49 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 09-12-2006, 07:53 AM   #5
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Sure, here is the sheet:

http://project802.net/personal/auto/...t_sheet-r1.xls

I measured 75*F which is almost 25*C (I can make a 25*C measurement easily) and there are a few in that range of 25 to 50.
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Old 09-12-2006, 08:24 AM   #6
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Check out this thermistor:

http://www.ussensor.com/rt%20charts/KX222J2.htm
http://www.ussensor.com/prod_inter_precision.htm

It has +/- 1*C accuracy and given that my measurement instruments probably are in the same ballpark, the curves are very very similar. The density of air changes 129 g/m^3 from 0*C to 30*C (1293 to 1164).

300 CFM at 1293g/m^3 = 36.6g/ft^3 is 183 g/s
300 CFM at 1164g/m^3 = 32.0g/ft^3 is 160 g/s

So a temp swing of 30*C yeilds a difference of about 23 g/s which can make a difference (btw 160 to 183 is about peak power for a stock 2.0L WRX) but over 30*C an accuracy of 3*C isn't that effective in shifting loads. What is more important is how fast that thermistor is. It says

Quote:
Thermal time constant: 1 second max. in a well stirred oil bath, 10 seconds max. in still air
and
Quote:
The thermal time constant is the time required for a thermistor to change 63.2% of the total difference between its initial and final body temperature when subjected to a step function change in temperature under zero-power conditions.
So up to 10 seconds to change temperature 63% of the way but consider how fast the air changes...thats not bad. I can measure a close to thermal time constant for the stock sensor.
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Old 09-12-2006, 08:38 AM   #7
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nice. it looks like the characteristic resistance is 2k2 @ 25c.

the calculated beta is 4021, which is not surprisingly a non standard value. the closest match is curve #1 (3950). i've also seen this listed as a type "L."

here's a table of a curve 1 2k2 ntc thermistor:
Code:
    R25         2.2      k ohm +/-       5           %
  B(25/50)      3950       K +/-         3           %

   TEMP.       R-low      R-center     R-high
  (deg.C)     (k ohm)     (k ohm)     (k ohm)
    -40       64.8883     75.9605     88.6996
    -39       60.7855     71.0140     82.7563
    -38       56.9702     66.4234     77.2516
    -37       53.4205     62.1609     72.1505
    -36       50.1160     58.2007     67.4206
    -35       47.0383     54.5195     63.0326
    -34       44.1704     51.0959     58.9596
    -33       41.4965     47.9102     55.1769
    -32       39.0023     44.9443     51.6620
    -31       36.6746     42.1816     48.3942
    -30       34.5013     39.6070     45.3547
    -29       32.4710     37.2065     42.5259
    -28       30.5736     34.9671     39.8920
    -27       28.7994     32.8771     37.4384
    -26       27.1397     30.9256     35.1515
    -25       25.5863     29.1025     33.0190
    -24       24.1288     27.3949     31.0253
    -23       22.7638     25.7986     29.1649
    -22       21.4848     24.3056     27.4280
    -21       20.2859     22.9086     25.8056
    -20       19.1616     21.6008     24.2896
    -19       18.1068     20.3760     22.8723
    -18       17.1168     19.2284     21.5466
    -17       16.1872     18.1528     20.3061
    -16       15.3139     17.1440     19.1449
    -15       14.4932     16.1977     18.0573
    -14       13.7217     15.3094     17.0382
    -13       12.9960     14.4754     16.0830
    -12       12.3132     13.6920     15.1872
    -11       11.6705     12.9558     14.3468
    -10       11.0653     12.2638     13.5581
     -9       10.4951     11.6129     12.8175
     -8        9.9579     11.0005     12.1219
     -7        9.4514     10.4241     11.4683
     -6        8.9737      9.8814     10.8538
     -5        8.5230      9.3702     10.2759
     -4        8.0971      8.8879      9.7315
     -3        7.6951      8.4333      9.2192
     -2        7.3155      8.0047      8.7370
     -1        6.9568      7.6005      8.2829
     0         6.6179      7.2190      7.8551
     1         6.2979      6.8594      7.4524
     2         5.9953      6.5199      7.0726
     3         5.7089      6.1991      6.7145
     4         5.4379      5.8959      6.3765
     5         5.1813      5.6093      6.0575
     6         4.9379      5.3378      5.7557
     7         4.7073      5.0810      5.4708
     8         4.4888      4.8381      5.2016
     9         4.2818      4.6083      4.9472
     10        4.0856      4.3907      4.7068
     11        3.8996      4.1847      4.4796
     12        3.7231      3.9896      4.2646
     13        3.5556      3.8048      4.0612
     14        3.3966      3.6295      3.8686
     15        3.2456      3.4633      3.6863
     16        3.1021      3.3055      3.5134
     17        2.9658      3.1558      3.3497
     18        2.8362      3.0138      3.1945
     19        2.7130      2.8790      3.0474
     20        2.5959      2.7509      2.9079
     21        2.4845      2.6293      2.7755
     22        2.3785      2.5137      2.6499
     23        2.2775      2.4038      2.5307
     24        2.1815      2.2993      2.4175
     25        2.0900      2.2000      2.3100
     26        1.9976      2.1055      2.2137
     27        1.9098      2.0156      2.1219
     28        1.8263      1.9300      2.0344
     29        1.7469      1.8485      1.9511
     30        1.6714      1.7709      1.8715
     31        1.5996      1.6969      1.7957
     32        1.5312      1.6265      1.7234
     33        1.4662      1.5594      1.6543
     34        1.4043      1.4954      1.5885
     35        1.3453      1.4344      1.5256
     36        1.2891      1.3762      1.4655
     37        1.2356      1.3207      1.4081
     38        1.1845      1.2677      1.3532
     39        1.1359      1.2171      1.3008
     40        1.0895      1.1688      1.2507
     41        1.0452      1.1227      1.2028
     42        1.0030      1.0786      1.1570
     43        0.9627      1.0365      1.1132
     44        0.9242      0.9963      1.0713
     45        0.8875      0.9578      1.0311
     46        0.8525      0.9211      0.9927
     47        0.8190      0.8859      0.9560
     48        0.7870      0.8523      0.9208
     49        0.7564      0.8202      0.8871
     50        0.7272      0.7894      0.8548
     51        0.6993      0.7599      0.8238
     52        0.6726      0.7317      0.7941
     53        0.6470      0.7047      0.7657
     54        0.6225      0.6788      0.7384
     55        0.5991      0.6540      0.7122
     56        0.5767      0.6303      0.6871
     57        0.5553      0.6075      0.6630
     58        0.5347      0.5856      0.6398
     59        0.5150      0.5647      0.6176
     60        0.4962      0.5446      0.5963
     61        0.4781      0.5254      0.5759
     62        0.4608      0.5069      0.5562
     63        0.4443      0.4892      0.5374
     64        0.4284      0.4722      0.5192
     65        0.4131      0.4559      0.5018
     66        0.3984      0.4402      0.4850
     67        0.3844      0.4251      0.4689
     68        0.3709      0.4106      0.4533
     69        0.3579      0.3966      0.4384
     70        0.3455      0.3832      0.4240
     71        0.3336      0.3704      0.4103
     72        0.3221      0.3581      0.3970
     73        0.3112      0.3462      0.3843
     74        0.3006      0.3348      0.3720
     75        0.2905      0.3239      0.3602
     76        0.2807      0.3133      0.3488
     77        0.2713      0.3031      0.3378
     78        0.2623      0.2933      0.3272
     79        0.2536      0.2839      0.3169
     80        0.2452      0.2748      0.3071
     81        0.2372      0.2660      0.2976
     82        0.2295      0.2576      0.2885
     83        0.2221      0.2495      0.2797
     84        0.2149      0.2417      0.2712
     85        0.2080      0.2342      0.2630
     86        0.2014      0.2270      0.2551
     87        0.1950      0.2200      0.2475
     88        0.1889      0.2132      0.2401
     89        0.1829      0.2067      0.2330
     90        0.1772      0.2004      0.2261
     91        0.1717      0.1944      0.2195
     92        0.1664      0.1885      0.2131
     93        0.1613      0.1829      0.2069
     94        0.1563      0.1775      0.2010
     95        0.1516      0.1722      0.1952
     96        0.1470      0.1672      0.1896
     97        0.1426      0.1623      0.1842
     98        0.1383      0.1576      0.1791
     99        0.1342      0.1530      0.1740
    100        0.1302      0.1486      0.1692
    101        0.1264      0.1443      0.1645
    102        0.1227      0.1402      0.1599
    103        0.1191      0.1363      0.1555
    104        0.1156      0.1324      0.1513
    105        0.1123      0.1287      0.1471
    106        0.1090      0.1251      0.1432
    107        0.1059      0.1216      0.1393
    108        0.1029      0.1183      0.1355
    109        0.1000      0.1150      0.1319
    110        0.0972      0.1118      0.1284
    111        0.0944      0.1088      0.1250
    112        0.0918      0.1058      0.1217
    113        0.0892      0.1030      0.1185
    114        0.0868      0.1002      0.1154
    115        0.0844      0.0975      0.1124
    116        0.0821      0.0949      0.1096
    117        0.0799      0.0924      0.1067
    118        0.0777      0.0900      0.1040
    119        0.0756      0.0877      0.1014
    120        0.0736      0.0854      0.0988
    121        0.0716      0.0832      0.0964
    122        0.0697      0.0810      0.0940
    123        0.0679      0.0790      0.0916
    124        0.0661      0.0770      0.0893
    125        0.0644      0.0750      0.0871


            MURATA MANUFACTURING CO.,LTD.
unfortunately most thermistors are SMD. i'm searching for through hole units now. one appears here: http://www.ametherm.com/Data%20Sheets/NT03%2022291.pdf

who knows, there may even be an easy to mount version (ie npt housing, etc).
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Old 09-12-2006, 08:44 AM   #8
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we were posting at the same time.

i find it annoying that one mfg's curve L is another's curve J!

i like the us sensor units you found. they look very similar to oem. i wonder if they'll part with some samples?
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Old 09-12-2006, 08:59 AM   #9
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Yes samples are always good. They have a distributor in Norwood which is a few exits down 95 from me.
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Old 09-12-2006, 09:06 AM   #10
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Hey I missed this one:

http://www.ussensor.com/prod_therm_prob_thr.html

2nd from the top. Damn that looks perfect. If it doesn't pick up the radiant heat from the pipe its threaded into, should be mint. Someone is getting an email...now if I could only make a virtual puppy face
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Old 09-12-2006, 09:17 AM   #11
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i wonder how much the brass housing will slow the TC?
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Old 09-12-2006, 10:36 AM   #12
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Dunno but I sent an email to their sales people, it got forwarded to engineering and I got a reply. He wanted to know the max temperature it would see and how long of a wire to use before he could send back a drawing. I told him 40" and 80*C as well as asked if the housing changes the thermal time constant.
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Old 09-12-2006, 10:48 AM   #13
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Eventually you'll be able to enter a calibration for a separate IAT into the UTEC software. IIRC this should be part of the new GUI.
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Old 09-12-2006, 10:53 AM   #14
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Cool. Sounds like the UTEC will get steroid injections with the new GUI.
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Old 09-12-2006, 11:58 AM   #15
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The new GUI will unlock a lot of new features and take advantage of some new hardware inside the Delta. Our hope is to further simplify the tuning process rather then just to keep adding features and functions (although those will be available for more advanced users). The UTEC and Delta platforms are growing up, and this is just one of the many steps in their growth. I think you guys will be pleased with the results.
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Old 09-12-2006, 02:39 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdvma View Post
Hey I missed this one:

http://www.ussensor.com/prod_therm_prob_thr.html

2nd from the top. Damn that looks perfect. If it doesn't pick up the radiant heat from the pipe its threaded into, should be mint. Someone is getting an email...now if I could only make a virtual puppy face

I dismantled several junk electronic devices to scavenge their thermistors. Most, like out of amplifier protection circuits, were way off target.

I found a fairly close one in an old cell-phone battery conditioner. What I noticed about all of the ones I found was that the bigger the ceramic coating, the slower it took for the readings to level off as the thermistor acclimated. A metal housing would probably lag behind even worse.

If you notice the stock unit, it's suspended by its own leads and covered in just a small clear blob of... something.

Before clipping off the stock one and building some kind of holder (I'd love to slip one into a vacuum port to access the inside of the manifold) I'm going to try some wheatstone bridge ideas to modifiy the resistance, or multiple bridges with multiple thermisters to increase response. I think if I can make the slope similar to stock I can just tweak the bridges to get the right ohm to temp range.

Granted, I'll get bored and stop once I find out if it is possible. The GM MAF sensor is back on the shelf along with the freq to voltage converters.
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Old 09-12-2006, 02:44 PM   #17
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I've got a quote being built for the thermocouple in the brass NPT fitting as well as just the thermocouple itself. That "something" is epoxy to protect it. I too have considered cutting off the sensor from the housing and moving it (its that easy) but if there is a cheap option out there that doesn't require cutting up a really expensive sensor I'll do it and test the viability so we can all bennefit from it.
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Old 09-12-2006, 03:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdvma View Post
if there is a cheap option out there that doesn't require cutting up a really expensive sensor I'll do it and test the viability so we can all bennefit from it.
exactly.
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Old 09-12-2006, 05:27 PM   #19
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Well. I dogged up my outside air temp sensor because I'm a jerkass, but it does seem to be the same type as the AIT. It's just totaly melted/molded into that plastic case. Feels like it might have a thin coating of hot-glue or RTV around the actual thermistor.

I replaced it (the outside one) with another thermister labled, as best as I can see, "UEI 220". (could be VEI.) At first I thought it wasn't working but now it seems to read, actually, correctly. It just updates slowly. I think that's the ECU's doing. It may be a degree low, though that is probably due to its new location just above the FMIC where as the stock one was hidden low, getting pre-heated air across it.

I can't find anything online that gives me its specs, let alone, where to buy another. I'm just puzzled that the new thermistor reads a good 1000 or so ohms higher than the stocker, but the temp isn't any different. At least not that different. I'd bet the AIT isn't that picky either. And if it is, I bet it's tune-around-able.

My next idea is to install thermistors all over the place and switch between them to read out on the dash display. Air filter, pre-intercooler, post-intercooler, brakes, AC / Heater output, my gas pedal, my butt, my passenger's butt.... the data is limitless.
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Old 09-12-2006, 06:47 PM   #20
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Anything with a 2.2KOhm resistance at 25*C and a close Beta number will read semi accurately. It doesn't surprise me that it is labeled 220 for 2.20K. You might have just got super lucky you dog you.
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Old 09-13-2006, 09:21 AM   #21
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I ordered a new outside temp sensor this morning. Once it is in, I'll mount the thermistor in the intake airstream. Probably overlap 2 silicone hoses instead of using a reducer at one point so the leads will be sandwiched, clear of any metal, and the thermistor will be inside the fmic tubing... and see how well it reacts.

I'd like to find a radial version so it can span the tubing and be suspended in the middle of the airflow.
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Old 09-13-2006, 09:25 AM   #22
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I suspect that its adjustment period is very slow. There is a reason Subaru left the thermistor encased in only epoxy at the MAF and I'd have to believe that it is for speed. It can update the temperature in as little as a couple of seconds which I doubt something encased in plastic will do. I have the outdoor sensor as well, I can dunk it in water and compare the thermal time constants of the two. Also, if one breaks off I'd rather have a little thermistor and not a giant sensor assembly go pick a fight with the intake valves
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Old 09-14-2006, 02:22 PM   #23
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So USSensors wants a minimum order of $250 and that ends up being 30 of the bare thermistors or 25 of the ones in brass. I don't feel like dishing out that $ just to test. I guess the whole paragraph explaining I am an individual and just want like one or two sensors for testing was totally ignored before dragging me through a quotation process.

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Old 09-14-2006, 02:33 PM   #24
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that sucks. it would be one thing it we knew it worked.

do they have distributors who would be willing to do a free sample, or at the least, a qty less than 25-30?
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Old 09-14-2006, 02:35 PM   #25
cdvma
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2009 BMW X5

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Yea they do have distributors. I will contact the one in Norwood to see what they have in stock and if I can buy just a couple.
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