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Old 03-17-2007, 02:30 PM   #1
TMessick
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Member#: 882
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
very blue

Default Closed loop target AFR versus Low det/hi det fuel surfs

Ziggyrama and I were having some discussions regarding the Hi det/low det fuel surfaces versus the CL target AFR over here so I decided to start a new thread rather than pollute Buck's STX map discussion.

To review:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post
I am pretty sure the stock ECU disregards anything leaner than 14.7:1. It does not target anything leaner than that. I have seen this first hand myself. I could lean out my CL AFR significantly and the ECU would still target 14.7:1, regardless. This is USDM 04 WRX. I have also verified that changing to run richer does take effect so I know I got the right map location. Just something to concider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMessick View Post
Odd -- I'm set up to run ~15:1 closed loop on my '04 and it seems like it is actively targeting that while closed loop. Maybe I need to re-check my logs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post
DO you still have your rear O2 sensor in place? I noticed something curious the other day after I removed my rear O2 sensor and I'd like to get some reference info before I start looking into this more.
So generically, I'd like to discuss the relationship between the CL target AFR and the fueling surface. My current assumption/understanding is that as long as the ECU is closed loop, you'll target the CL target AFR and when open loop, you target the surface AFR (although the term "target" here is a bit misleading as there's no active feedback. You just kind of use the surface AFR).

That's all pretty clear when CL target is 14.7 and you go WOT, go open loop, and use the surface value of say 11.0 AFR. Gets a bit more tricky when your CL target is 15.0 and the surface still has 14.7's at part throttle.
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Last edited by TMessick; 03-17-2007 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 03-17-2007, 02:31 PM   #2
TMessick
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Member#: 882
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
very blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post
DO you still have your rear O2 sensor in place? I noticed something curious the other day after I removed my rear O2 sensor and I'd like to get some reference info before I start looking into this more.
Yeah -- hardware is still stock except for a Prodrive Y-pipe, so rear O2 is attatched and running. Running my own "stage1" cal based of the OpenECU free map but with many changes. I'll poke around my logs -- I know I have several from my drives into work, so there will be some 75mph steady-state cruise data that should validate whether the system is really controlling to the leaner AFR target.

I was also concerned that the rear O2 trim would "learn out" the leaner AFR, but I haven't seem my AFR #3 learning move at all. I also haven't been staring at my logs too much lately.
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Old 03-17-2007, 02:47 PM   #3
TMessick
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Michigan
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2004 WRX Wagon
very blue

Default

OK looked at my 75mph cruise logs and found something interesting. Sensor and front O2 correction is showing 14.7 AFR even though I should be targeting 15.0. Then I looked back at my stock logs and the stock ECU is showing 14.4 AFR for the same condition. So I'm getting the 0.3 AFR offset I have cal'd in, but it looks liek something else may be offsetting the target AFR.

I vaguely remember seeing an XML file for WRX (or STi?) that defined a speed/load offset to target AFR. On the OEM stuff I work on, we typically do something like this for emissions. Basically, you target a slightly richer AFR at higher speeds/loads to keep down NOx emissions, at lower speeds/loads where combustion temps are low enough you can target a more "normal" stoich AFR of 14.7 Not sure if this is definitely what's happening, but it's as good of a rationalization as any.

I also have a log from in-town driving at 40mph which shows the 15.0 AFR being used. Here ya go:
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Old 03-17-2007, 02:50 PM   #4
TMessick
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Join Date: Feb 2000
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2004 WRX Wagon
very blue

Default

Code:
Time	RPM	MAP	AFR	AF_Corr	AF_lrn	AF_Cor3	Thr	MAF	Ign	MPH
286.031	2145	3.482	24	0	0	-0.78	0	4.31	12	43
286.301	2118	3.337	24	0	0	-0.78	0	4.34	12	42
286.572	2090	3.482	24.12	0	0	-0.78	0	4.39	12	42
286.842	2042	3.337	24	0	0	-0.78	0	4.28	12	42
287.112	2004	3.482	23.89	0	0	-0.78	0	4.28	12	40
287.383	1971	3.482	24	0	0	-0.78	0	4.25	12	40
287.653	1963	3.482	24	0	0	-0.78	0	4.23	12	40
287.924	1791	3.482	23.77	0	0	-0.78	0	4.12	12	40
288.204	1449	3.337	23.77	0	0	-0.78	0	3.58	20	39
288.474	1223	3.918	23.89	0	0	-0.78	0	3.75	20	38
288.745	1405	3.627	22.85	0	0	-0.78	0	3.41	12	38
289.015	1424	3.482	16.77	0	0	-0.78	0	3.38	12	37
289.286	1433	3.482	17.57	0	0	-0.78	0	3.38	12	37
289.556	1422	3.482	17.69	0	0	-0.78	1.57	3.43	12	37
289.826	1433	5.369	17.23	0	0	-0.78	6.27	8.89	30	37
290.097	1414	8.706	15.27	0.78	1.56	-0.78	10.2	17.73	27	37
290.367	1404	12.624	14.47	-0.78	1.56	-0.78	16.08	22.13	26	36
290.638	1431	13.929	14.59	2.34	1.56	-0.78	20.78	21.97	26	36
290.908	1441	14.22	14.59	1.56	1.56	-0.78	20.78	22.06	26	36
291.178	1439	14.365	14.36	3.13	1.56	-0.78	20.78	22.41	26	36
291.449	1462	14.655	14.36	5.47	1.56	-0.78	20.78	23.25	26	36
291.719	1478	14.8	14.13	6.25	1.56	-0.78	20.78	22.43	27	36
291.989	1480	14.8	14.01	5.47	1.56	-0.78	18.43	23.06	27	37
292.26	1505	14.655	14.01	6.25	1.56	-0.78	18.04	23.74	27	37
292.53	1505	14.8	14.13	6.25	1.56	-0.78	18.04	23.93	27	37
292.801	1522	14.8	13.9	5.47	1.56	-0.78	18.04	24.32	27	38
293.081	1528	14.8	14.01	5.47	1.56	-0.78	18.04	24.12	27	38
293.351	1548	14.945	14.24	6.25	1.56	-0.78	18.04	24.42	28	39
293.622	1561	14.945	13.9	6.25	1.56	-0.78	18.04	25.69	28	39
293.892	1588	14.945	14.13	5.47	1.56	-0.78	18.04	25.49	28	39
294.163	1597	14.655	13.9	4.69	1.56	-0.78	13.33	24.32	29	40
294.433	1588	11.898	13.21	1.56	1.56	-0.78	9.41	17.64	29	40
294.703	1602	10.882	14.36	-0.78	1.56	-0.78	8.63	16.09	30	40
294.974	1604	10.157	14.59	-0.78	1.56	-0.78	8.24	16.09	30	40
295.244	1624	9.431	14.93	-1.56	1.56	-0.78	7.06	13.62	31	41
295.515	1623	8.706	14.93	0	1.56	-0.78	7.06	13.67	31	41
295.785	1624	8.416	14.81	-1.56	1.56	-0.78	6.27	13.2	33	41
296.055	1628	7.545	14.47	-3.91	1.56	-0.78	5.49	11.28	33	41
296.326	1627	6.965	14.7	-4.69	1.56	-0.78	5.1	10.27	33	41
296.596	1629	6.529	14.7	-6.25	1.56	-0.78	4.31	9.89	33	41
296.866	1624	5.369	14.7	-7.03	0	-0.78	1.96	6.1	31	41
297.137	1614	4.353	14.59	-9.38	0	-0.78	0.78	4.81	19	41
297.407	1597	3.627	14.59	-9.38	0	-0.78	0	4.04	15	41
297.678	1618	3.047	15.16	0	0	-0.78	0	3.43	12	41
297.948	1600	3.192	23.2	0	0	-0.78	0	3.43	12	41
298.218	1585	3.337	23.43	0	0	-0.78	0.39	3.73	12	41
298.489	1574	3.482	23.54	0	0	-0.78	0.39	4.17	12	41
298.759	1553	3.627	23.89	0	0	-0.78	0.39	4.23	12	41
299.03	1555	3.627	23.77	0	0	-0.78	2.35	4.23	12	40
299.3	1530	4.933	23.77	0	0	-0.78	3.92	7.97	3	40
299.57	1556	6.82	18.03	0	0	-0.78	7.45	12.96	12	40
299.841	1522	8.851	14.7	0	1.56	-0.78	9.02	15.73	21	39
300.111	1544	9.867	14.59	3.13	1.56	-0.78	9.02	16.35	29	39
300.382	1547	10.157	14.47	5.47	1.56	-0.78	9.41	16.48	29	40
300.652	1548	10.447	14.24	5.47	1.56	-0.78	9.41	16.7	29	40
300.922	1559	10.302	14.01	4.69	1.56	-0.78	9.41	16.35	30	40
301.193	1562	9.286	14.01	5.47	1.56	-0.78	6.27	12.48	30	40
301.463	1558	8.271	14.13	4.69	1.56	-0.78	6.27	12.19	32	40
301.733	1559	7.98	14.13	6.25	1.56	-0.78	6.27	11.96	32	39
302.004	1561	7.69	14.13	6.25	1.56	-0.78	5.49	11.38	32	39
302.274	1573	7.4	14.01	5.47	1.56	-0.78	5.49	11	33	40
302.545	1571	7.255	14.13	5.47	1.56	-0.78	5.49	10.71	32	40
302.815	1574	7.11	14.01	4.69	1.56	-0.78	5.49	10.66	32	40
303.085	1563	6.965	14.01	4.69	1.56	-0.78	5.49	10.74	32	40
303.356	1562	6.965	14.01	4.69	1.56	-0.78	4.71	10.74	33	40
303.626	1575	6.675	13.9	3.13	1.56	-0.78	4.71	9.96	32	40
303.897	1577	6.529	14.01	4.69	0	-0.78	4.71	9.72	32	40
304.177	1572	6.529	14.24	5.47	0	-0.78	4.71	9.81	32	40
304.447	1564	6.529	14.13	5.47	0	-0.78	4.71	9.91	32	40
304.718	1570	6.529	14.13	5.47	0	-0.78	4.71	9.86	32	40
304.988	1575	6.529	14.13	6.25	0	-0.78	4.71	9.82	32	40
305.269	1578	6.529	14.01	5.47	0	-0.78	4.71	9.77	32	40
305.539	1583	6.384	14.01	4.69	0	-0.78	4.71	9.68	32	40
305.809	1582	6.239	13.9	3.91	0	-0.78	4.31	9.13	32	40
306.08	1585	6.094	14.01	3.91	0	-0.78	4.31	9.14	32	40
306.35	1574	6.094	14.01	1.56	0	-0.78	4.31	9.17	32	40
306.631	1577	5.949	14.24	-2.34	0	-0.78	4.31	8.61	32	40
306.901	1586	5.804	14.59	-3.13	0	-0.78	3.92	8.43	31	40
307.171	1592	5.659	14.81	-3.91	0	-0.78	3.92	8.3	31	40
307.442	1588	5.659	14.93	-3.91	0	-0.78	3.92	8.34	31	40
307.722	1585	5.659	15.16	-2.34	0	-0.78	3.92	8.43	31	40
307.992	1590	5.514	15.04	-2.34	0	-0.78	3.92	7.87	31	40
308.263	1579	5.514	15.39	0.78	0	-0.78	3.53	8.08	31	40
308.543	1576	5.514	14.93	0	0	-0.78	3.53	8.13	31	40
308.814	1577	5.514	14.7	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.8	31	41
309.084	1576	5.369	14.93	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.53	8.08	31	41
309.354	1578	5.369	15.04	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.53	8.08	31	40
309.625	1588	5.369	14.81	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.75	31	40
309.895	1586	5.224	14.93	-3.13	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.75	31	40
310.176	1573	5.224	15.04	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.62	31	40
310.446	1588	5.224	14.93	-3.13	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.7	31	40
310.716	1580	5.224	14.93	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.61	31	40
310.987	1578	5.224	15.04	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.61	31	40
311.257	1579	5.224	15.04	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.62	31	40
311.528	1573	5.224	14.81	-3.13	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.53	31	40
311.798	1591	5.224	15.04	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.66	31	40
312.068	1593	5.224	15.04	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.61	31	40
312.339	1571	5.224	14.81	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.65	31	40
312.619	1578	5.224	15.04	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.7	31	40
312.89	1570	5.224	15.04	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.61	31	40
313.16	1571	5.224	14.93	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.74	31	40
313.43	1580	5.224	14.93	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.48	31	40
313.701	1581	5.224	15.16	-0.78	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.53	31	40
313.971	1580	5.369	14.93	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.7	31	40
314.241	1573	5.224	14.81	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.74	31	40
314.512	1566	5.369	14.81	-3.13	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.74	31	40
314.782	1552	5.369	15.04	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.53	7.95	31	40
315.063	1568	5.514	15.16	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.53	8.29	31	40
315.333	1568	5.659	15.04	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.53	8.33	31	40
315.603	1562	5.659	14.93	-1.56	0.78	-0.78	3.92	8.55	31	40
315.874	1549	6.094	15.04	-0.78	0.78	-0.78	4.31	9.18	31	40
316.144	1557	6.239	15.04	-0.78	0.78	-0.78	4.71	9.54	32	40
316.415	1562	6.529	15.16	0	1.56	-0.78	4.71	10.05	32	40
316.685	1559	6.82	14.7	-2.34	1.56	-0.78	5.1	10.73	32	40
316.955	1548	7.11	14.7	-3.13	1.56	-0.78	5.49	10.86	32	40
317.226	1543	7.4	14.93	-3.13	2.34	-0.78	5.88	11.62	32	40
317.506	1553	7.69	14.93	-3.13	2.34	-0.78	6.27	12.7	32	40
317.777	1538	8.125	15.04	-2.34	2.34	-0.78	6.27	12.69	32	40
318.047	1547	8.416	14.81	-3.13	2.34	-0.78	7.06	13.44	30	40
318.317	1544	8.996	15.39	-0.78	2.34	-0.78	7.45	14.77	30	39
318.588	1547	9.286	14.81	-3.13	2.34	-0.78	8.24	14.52	30	39
318.858	1535	9.722	15.39	0	2.34	-0.78	8.63	15.34	29	39
319.129	1546	10.012	14.93	-0.78	2.34	-0.78	8.63	15.88	29	39
319.399	1556	10.157	14.93	-0.78	2.34	-0.78	8.63	15.61	29	39
319.669	1533	10.157	15.04	0.78	2.34	-0.78	8.63	16.36	29	39
319.95	1546	10.302	14.81	-0.78	2.34	-0.78	8.63	15.88	29	39
320.22	1544	10.447	15.04	0	2.34	-0.78	9.41	16.83	29	39
320.49	1527	10.737	14.81	-0.78	2.34	-0.78	9.8	17.56	29	40
320.761	1542	11.027	14.93	0	2.34	-0.78	9.8	17.69	29	40
321.031	1548	11.173	14.81	-0.78	2.34	-0.78	10.2	18.05	27	40
321.302	1553	11.318	15.04	0	2.34	-0.78	10.2	18.04	26	40
321.572	1541	11.463	14.93	0	2.34	-0.78	10.59	18.56	26	40
321.842	1551	11.608	14.93	-0.78	2.34	-0.78	10.59	19.01	27	40
322.113	1543	11.753	14.93	0	2.34	-0.78	10.59	18.77	26	39
322.393	1531	11.753	15.04	-0.78	2.34	-0.78	10.98	19	26	39
322.664	1544	12.043	14.93	0	2.34	-0.78	11.76	19.6	27	39
322.934	1564	12.188	15.04	0	2.34	-0.78	11.76	19.73	28	39
323.204	1562	11.898	14.93	0	2.34	-0.78	10.59	18.68	28	39
323.475	1556	11.463	14.7	-0.78	2.34	-0.78	10.2	18.41	28	39
323.745	1567	11.173	14.81	-1.56	2.34	-0.78	10.2	17.89	28	39
324.016	1561	10.882	14.7	-2.34	2.34	-0.78	9.41	17.07	29	40
324.286	1588	10.737	15.04	-2.34	3.13	-0.78	9.41	17.22	29	40
324.556	1587	10.737	14.93	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	9.41	17.36	29	40
324.827	1586	10.737	14.93	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	9.41	17.23	29	40
325.097	1585	10.592	14.93	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	9.41	16.96	30	40
325.367	1582	10.447	14.81	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	9.41	17.03	30	40
325.638	1587	10.302	15.04	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	8.63	16.21	30	40
325.908	1586	10.157	15.04	-0.78	3.13	-0.78	8.63	16.22	30	40
326.179	1589	10.157	14.93	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	8.63	16.09	30	40
326.449	1583	10.012	14.93	0	3.13	-0.78	8.63	15.42	30	40
326.719	1591	9.722	14.93	-0.78	3.13	-0.78	8.24	15.71	31	40
326.99	1598	9.722	14.7	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	8.24	15.65	31	40
327.26	1599	9.576	14.7	-2.34	3.13	-0.78	8.24	14.37	31	41
327.531	1596	9.576	14.93	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	8.24	15.47	31	41
327.801	1598	9.431	14.81	-2.34	3.13	-0.78	7.45	14.86	30	41
328.071	1597	9.141	14.7	-3.91	3.13	-0.78	7.45	14.58	31	40
328.342	1587	9.141	14.93	-2.34	3.13	-0.78	7.45	14.46	31	40
328.612	1591	9.141	14.93	-2.34	3.13	-0.78	7.45	14.57	31	40
328.883	1582	8.996	14.93	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	7.45	14.17	31	40
329.153	1587	8.851	14.93	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	7.45	13.99	31	40
329.423	1586	8.851	14.93	-0.78	3.13	-0.78	7.45	14.11	31	40
329.694	1599	8.851	14.81	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	7.45	13.93	31	40
329.964	1598	8.851	15.04	-0.78	3.13	-0.78	7.45	13.76	31	40
330.234	1597	8.706	14.81	-0.78	3.13	-0.78	7.06	13.59	31	40
330.505	1600	8.706	15.04	-1.56	3.13	-0.78	7.06	13.71	31	40
330.775	1606	8.416	14.59	-2.34	3.13	-0.78	6.67	13.06	31	40
331.046	1609	7.98	14.7	-3.91	3.13	-0.78	6.27	12.14	33	41
331.316	1607	7.835	14.81	-3.91	3.13	-0.78	6.27	12.16	33	41
331.586	1613	7.69	15.04	-3.91	3.13	-0.78	5.88	11.95	33	41
331.857	1614	7.255	14.81	-4.69	3.13	-0.78	5.1	10.45	33	41
332.127	1616	6.675	14.7	-5.47	3.13	-0.78	4.71	10.28	33	41
332.398	1614	6.384	14.93	-4.69	2.34	-0.78	4.71	9.4	33	41
332.668	1612	6.094	14.81	-4.69	0.78	-0.78	4.31	8.61	32	41
332.938	1619	5.804	15.27	-2.34	0.78	-0.78	3.92	8.52	32	41
333.209	1621	5.514	14.81	-3.13	0.78	-0.78	3.14	7.83	31	41
333.479	1619	5.078	14.7	-3.91	0.78	-0.78	2.75	6.91	31	41
333.76	1623	4.933	14.7	-5.47	0.78	-0.78	2.75	6.99	31	41
334.04	1626	4.643	14.81	-5.47	0.78	-0.78	2.35	6.34	30	41
334.32	1618	4.498	14.81	-6.25	0	-0.78	1.96	5.9	30	41
334.591	1614	4.353	14.93	-5.47	0	-0.78	2.35	5.93	30	41
334.851	1615	4.208	15.16	-4.69	0	-0.78	1.96	5.69	30	41
335.122	1616	4.208	14.93	-4.69	0	-0.78	1.96	5.63	30	41
335.392	1614	4.063	14.93	-4.69	0	-0.78	1.96	5.63	30	41
335.662	1606	4.063	15.16	-3.13	0	-0.78	1.96	5.53	30	41
335.933	1611	4.063	15.16	-2.34	-0.78	-0.78	1.96	5.43	30	41
336.203	1609	4.063	15.04	-1.56	-0.78	-0.78	1.96	5.43	30	41
336.473	1600	4.063	14.81	-2.34	-0.78	-0.78	1.57	5.34	30	41
336.744	1608	3.918	14.81	-3.13	-0.78	-0.78	1.96	5.34	30	41
337.024	1595	4.063	15.04	-1.56	-0.78	-0.78	1.57	5.43	30	40
337.295	1577	4.063	14.93	-1.56	-0.78	-0.78	1.57	5.34	30	40
337.565	1585	4.063	14.81	-2.34	-0.78	-0.78	1.57	5.4	30	40
337.835	1580	4.063	14.93	-2.34	-0.78	-0.78	1.57	5.47	29	40
338.106	1578	4.063	15.04	-1.56	-0.78	-0.78	1.57	5.4	30	40
338.376	1588	4.063	14.81	-2.34	-0.78	-0.78	1.57	5.4	30	41
338.647	1588	4.208	14.93	-2.34	-0.78	-0.78	1.96	5.63	30	41
338.917	1584	4.208	15.16	-0.78	-0.78	-0.78	1.96	5.53	30	40
339.187	1582	4.208	14.93	-1.56	-0.78	-0.78	1.96	5.53	29	40
339.468	1569	4.208	14.93	-1.56	0	-0.78	1.96	5.73	29	40
339.738	1581	4.208	15.16	0	0	-0.78	1.96	5.8	30	40
340.009	1561	4.353	14.93	-0.78	0	-0.78	1.96	5.86	29	40
340.279	1576	4.353	14.81	-1.56	0	-0.78	1.96	5.76	29	40
340.549	1575	4.353	14.93	-1.56	0	-0.78	1.96	5.8	29	40
340.82	1583	4.353	15.04	-0.78	0	-0.78	2.35	5.93	29	40
341.09	1574	4.498	15.04	0	0	-0.78	2.75	6.26	30	40
341.36	1565	4.643	14.93	-0.78	0	-0.78	2.75	6.56	30	40
341.631	1563	4.788	14.81	-1.56	0	-0.78	2.75	6.51	30	40
341.901	1573	4.788	14.7	-3.13	0.78	-0.78	2.75	6.53	30	40
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Old 03-17-2007, 06:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by TMessick View Post
OK looked at my 75mph cruise logs and found something interesting. Sensor and front O2 correction is showing 14.7 AFR even though I should be targeting 15.0. Then I looked back at my stock logs and the stock ECU is showing 14.4 AFR for the same condition. So I'm getting the 0.3 AFR offset I have cal'd in, but it looks liek something else may be offsetting the target AFR.

I vaguely remember seeing an XML file for WRX (or STi?) that defined a speed/load offset to target AFR. On the OEM stuff I work on, we typically do something like this for emissions. Basically, you target a slightly richer AFR at higher speeds/loads to keep down NOx emissions, at lower speeds/loads where combustion temps are low enough you can target a more "normal" stoich AFR of 14.7 Not sure if this is definitely what's happening, but it's as good of a rationalization as any.

I also have a log from in-town driving at 40mph which shows the 15.0 AFR being used. Here ya go:
These are some good observations. Based on my own logs in the past, when I was targeting above 14.9, I was still reading 14.7 when cruising on the highway at 75mph. This seems to fall right in with what you're seeing. Blkscooby has also seen this behavior himself and I know he logs while cruising on the highway. I saw this behavior before I pulled out my rear O2 sensor.

I am curious to see if this CL target AFR compensation table does exist on 16bit and 32bit ECUs. This may explain a lot of things. Do you think this table was exclusive to 32bit ECUs?

Also, I'd like to add that I find it very odd that the ECU can target higher than 14.7:1 AFR during CL but will not consider anything higher than that when in OL. Very strange.

Last edited by Ziggyrama; 03-17-2007 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 03-17-2007, 11:42 PM   #6
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OK, found it in the XML Write ECU_DEFS file generated for my 2004. Called "Load/RPM Target Lambda Bias Manual" Load as X, RPM as Y and lambda bias offset as Z. Haven't messed with it, so I can't verify what it does but it at least boxes with my assumptions. I'm thinking zeroing this would be a good idea... Not sure if it's there for the 32 bit, etc. but I'd venture to say that it probably is. Generating a new ECU_DEFS file from XML Write is a bit of a pain and I'm not motivated enough to look for it in a bunch of other maps. Heck, I'm still using the 510F map for my '04 because XML Write won't spit out the full listing for the 520F cal.

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Old 03-17-2007, 11:57 PM   #7
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Also, I'd like to add that I find it very odd that the ECU can target higher than 14.7:1 AFR during CL but will not consider anything higher than that when in OL. Very strange.
OK, now I see what you mean. I hadn't tried to edit the OL surfaces leaner than 14.7 before. Looks like that's impossible since 00 hex is equal to 14.7 AFR. I suspect that this may be an artifact of how enginuity, etc. display the surface. More than likely, this is intended as a lambda offset when open loop. 0X00 = 0 offset and 0xFF = 0.666 lamda offset. The only question then is, offset to what? The raw target CL AFR cal? Maybe. Just hypothesizing based on some of the prod software I've seen.
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Old 03-18-2007, 06:59 PM   #8
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+1 for the ECU targeting 14.7 at cruise even when I had the CL ratio up to 15.

At idle it would switch over to 15 after a bit.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:29 AM   #9
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tom, zero out that map.

many of the corrections to afr affect both open and closed loop operation, ie iat, ect, assorted maps such as the one you posted, etc.

however, when changing the closed loop target i have not found open loop actual afrs to change.

ken
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Old 03-19-2007, 04:16 PM   #10
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OK, now I see what you mean. I hadn't tried to edit the OL surfaces leaner than 14.7 before. Looks like that's impossible since 00 hex is equal to 14.7 AFR. I suspect that this may be an artifact of how enginuity, etc. display the surface. More than likely, this is intended as a lambda offset when open loop. 0X00 = 0 offset and 0xFF = 0.666 lamda offset. The only question then is, offset to what? The raw target CL AFR cal? Maybe. Just hypothesizing based on some of the prod software I've seen.
Indeed. I believe the primary fuel map is a lambda 1 offset map. The critical piece to nail down is the actual AFR that lambda 1 corresponds to since everything else is calculated in relation to it. Enginuity displays the fuel map as AFR because it is more intuitive to average person. Most people quote AFRs, not lambda, when talking about fueling so I think it just sort of evolved into this. As far as OL, I think the ECU probably has a well established baseline from which it is working. That probably means a formula that calculates IPW required to establish lambda 1 given the injector size, latency, etc. in relation to some unit of air mass, maybe 1g. This tells it that with a given injector, it needs to spray for X amount of time to reach lambda 1 if it has Y amount of air. After that, the rest is probably calculated off that formula like all the fueling compensations and such.

So, here's an interesting twist to all of this. Since ECU thinks in lambda, I think there's a huge assumption made when we talk about AFRs and that is that lambda 1 is 14.7:1 AFR. I have doubts in my mind that that is actually the case. I have come across Denso's planar chart that graphs current output vs. AFR. Here's the link to it (2nd to last post on the page):

http://www.enginuity.org/viewtopic.p...r=asc&start=15

That line intersects the 0 mA reading at 14.5 AFR, or so. I dug up the patent write up owned by Denso on the sensor:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6055972.html

Towards the bottom of the page, here's the relevant piece that I think is very interesting:

"The air-fuel ratio sensor 26 in this embodiment is so constructed to cause the limit current Ip to zero (Ip=0) at the stoichiometric air-fuel ratio A/F of 14.5 (.lambda.=1), so that control of the air-fuel ratio A/F with the zero limit current Ip (Ip=0) taken as a reference can be carried out with ease."

I got curious since my WBO2 does read 14.5 when I am crusing at reported 14.7 front O2 reading according to Enginuity logger. I logged lambda and front sensor current and 0 mA does correspond to lambda 1. So, this side checks out and I believe it has been established in the past. Where I am uncertain of things is the 14.7 multiplier. I mean, that is what most general papers quote as stoich for regular gas but who knows what Subaru thought was appropriate.
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Old 03-19-2007, 04:42 PM   #11
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OK, found it in the XML Write ECU_DEFS file generated for my 2004. Called "Load/RPM Target Lambda Bias Manual" Load as X, RPM as Y and lambda bias offset as Z. Haven't messed with it, so I can't verify what it does but it at least boxes with my assumptions. I'm thinking zeroing this would be a good idea... Not sure if it's there for the 32 bit, etc. but I'd venture to say that it probably is. Generating a new ECU_DEFS file from XML Write is a bit of a pain and I'm not motivated enough to look for it in a bunch of other maps. Heck, I'm still using the 510F map for my '04 because XML Write won't spit out the full listing for the 520F cal.

Time to whip out the hex editor and find that mapm on 520F

I looked briefly and looks like the main location of the table is the same between 500F and 520F. I need to verify it more to make sure.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:21 PM   #12
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OK, I looked at 520F with hex editor and the map looks like it has the same locations as 510F. The values look to be the same as well. I think I might just zero out the table and see if there's a change.
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Old 03-20-2007, 06:12 AM   #13
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and you will also post the code to add to the definition file...

right?
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:27 PM   #14
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and you will also post the code to add to the definition file...

right?
I wanted to test it before I post it. I zeroed out the values in the table this morning and looks like it did have some effect on my CL fueling. The difference is not very big since the table called for -0.12 reduction but looks like the bias in the AFR has indeed shifted slightly towards the lean side.

The definition for the map for 04 WRX ROM 520F is:

Generic definition for the base part:

<table type="3D" name="Fuel compensation RPM/Load" category="Experimental" endian="big" sizex="8" sizey="7" storagetype="uint8">
<scaling units="AFR" expression="x/557.278911564625901+(-0.2265625)" to_byte="(x-(-0.2265625))*557.278911564625901" format="#.00" fineincrement="0.1" coarseincrement="1"/>
<table type="X Axis" name="Load" endian="big" storagetype="uint16" sizex="8">
<scaling units="g" expression="x/8192" to_byte="x*8192" format="#.00" fineincrement="0.1" coarseincrement="1"/>
</table>
<table type="Y Axis" name="RPM" endian="big" storagetype="uint16" sizey="7">
<scaling units="RPM" expression="x/5.12" to_byte="x*5.12" format="#" fineincrement="100" coarseincrement="1000"/>
</table>
</table>

520F specific definition:

<table name="Fuel compensation RPM/Load" storageaddress="0x28C14">
<table type="X Axis" storageaddress="0x28C02"/>
<table type="Y Axis" storageaddress="0x28BF3"/>
</table>
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Old 04-10-2007, 10:28 AM   #15
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Is there a table like this in the 16 bit ECU's?
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Old 04-10-2007, 12:08 PM   #16
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That is the 16 bit ECU pictured above.
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:12 AM   #17
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Where can I go to find the correct addresses for my 2002 (A4SGE01C) 16 bit ROM? If the tables are the same size, I assume that I just need to change the storageaddress pointers.

EDIT: I've tried HEX editors and I can't seem to figure out the exact settings I need to see anything useful. Is there a specific editor that works better than others?
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:18 AM   #18
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Enginuity doesn't display the above table for my 02 ROM, or I don't know how to make it do so, but I have noticed that if I target an AFR of 15.0 or below, it likes to hunt and shoot for 14.7 almost all ofthe time. however, if I go to 15.1 or higher, it will hunt and hit whatever value I put in there. also, the AFR learning does not match(ie zero when it hits it's mark) but appears to still be be trying to hit 14.7. I am trying to run 15.1 AFR in CL, so I have totally given up on my STFT and LTFT because if I follow them, I have to change my injector scaling...and that just doesn't seem right. there must be something else I am missing. If I give up totally and just go back to 14.7 AFR, the car runs at 13.5 all the time and 14.7 when crusing.

FYI, for an 02 WRX ROM, I can't change the target AFR to be leaner than 14.7 in the OL map using enginuity, either on the fuel map itself or even the "minimum active primary OL enrichment" value(which I gather from the description of said value, is the leanest possible value on the OL table) however, I "might" be able to change the coolant temperature compensation values to encourage a positve % increase though.
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:01 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Wheeler Bement View Post
the "minimum active primary OL enrichment" value(which I gather from the description of said value, is the leanest possible value on the OL table)
i don't know for sure, but my impression of the name of that value means something else.... the value to which the primary fuel map is compared to determine whether or not the ecu runs in closed loop or open.

have you downloaded the latest logger defs which include the open/closed loop status? maybe you're running in open loop a lot more than you think.
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:47 AM   #20
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The primary OL fuel map is actually an enrichment table whose underlyiing value is an offset that is applied to base CL fueling. Therefore, zero enrichment (the smallest allowable value in this table) is effectively a 14.7:1 AFR.

"Minimum Active Primary OL enrichment" is the minimum enrichment (leanest effective AFR) that is allowed. That is, if the primary fuel map calls for enrichment less than the raw value (effectively leaner AFR than this value), then it is not applied and you will stay in closed loop.
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
have you downloaded the latest logger defs which include the open/closed loop status? maybe you're running in open loop a lot more than you think.
yes I have, and I have logged OL/CL. the car is very good about staying in CL when I want it too, and unless I mash the gas or ask for mor than wastegate boost, it stays in closed loop. I have noticed it will switch to open loop when I lift, but then goes right back into closed loop when I push the gas again.

my "Minimum Active Primary OL enrichment" value was set to 14.4 , which is stock I believe. If what Tea cups says is true, then changing this to 14.7 may make the car run in OL more often. Maybe I will try it and see, but I don't think it will fix my target AFR error in closed loop.

I have not been able to find any good info on changing target AFRs other than just changing the target and no issues with STFT and LTFT. My car seems to unwilling to want to change the target AFR and still keep legit fuel trims. even so, my fuel trims when driving around are all over the place anyway...even with a new sensor and no exhaust leaks that I can find.

Last edited by Wheeler Bement; 12-27-2007 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeler Bement View Post
my "Minimum Active Primary OL enrichment" value was set to 14.4 , which is stock I believe. If what Tea cups says is true, then changing this to 14.7 may make the car run in OL more often. Maybe I will try it and see, but I don't think it will fix my target AFR error in closed loop.
Changing it to 14.7:1 would not likely do anything unless you have some cells in your primary OL fuel map set between an effective AFR of 14.4-14.7:1 and then it would only impact the CL/OL and OL/CL transition in those areas of the map. Other than impacting these transitions, the OL fuel maps are not going to have an impact on closed loop fueling target(hence the name open loop). The only table in Enginuity that does is the "closed loop base fueling target" (16-bit ECU only). There are additional compensation tables that I'm going to add to the next ECU def update, however, for the 16-bit ECU.
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tea cups View Post
The only table in Enginuity that does is the "closed loop base fueling target" (16-bit ECU only). There are additional compensation tables that I'm going to add to the next ECU def update, however, for the 16-bit ECU.
this may then help a bunch
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