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Old 04-04-2007, 09:52 PM   #1
06rexwagon
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Default Tuning for /water injection

Looking for some input with people who have first hand experience tuning meth setups. I'm not looking to push my setup to the limits, just want a strong, safe tune. Here's my setup:
06 wrx
Cobb catted tbe
Ebay TMIC
VF39
Coolingmist stage 1 kit (not installed yet)

Any advice as far as when to trigger it (boost level) and what afrs to run on 91 octane with 50/50 meth?
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Old 04-07-2007, 05:43 AM   #2
4tun8
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I would set the unit to start spraying near 6psi and progressively spray until 15, and go full bore from there up to how ever much boost you want to run, really the sky is the limit (within reason) with meth.

Run 11.2-11.6 AFR, you can go leaner, but as a safety precaution I don't. You'll be able to get really agressive with timing with meth as well, dont forget about that....a lot of people push the boost and forget the timing!

Good luck.
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Old 04-07-2007, 10:40 AM   #3
06rexwagon
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Thanks so much for the reply. I'm using a single stage kit so I don't have progressive control. I was thinking about waiting until about 10-12 psi to trigger it so I wouldn't go through too much meth except at wot. Does that sound right? BTW, I'm running 18.5 psi without meth, will probably run 20 on meth.
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Old 04-09-2007, 06:56 PM   #4
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Based on the advice of a local tuner here's what I'm going to do. He said since it's a single stage kit I should trigger at 12psi. I'm going to look at a bunch of logs and find out what rpm/load I tend to hit 12psi at and then make all my fuel and timing changes at rpm/load levels just above that. I plan on running 11.6 to 1 and run as much timing as the car will tolerate without pulling timing. I'll post back with results.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:03 PM   #5
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10-12 psi is about right for the trigger point for a single jet system. I used 10 psi on mine. That is low enough that you won't be spraying all the time, but early enough thatyou are highly unlikely to get into trouble by spraying too late.

11.6:1 is a good conservative starting point, as mentioned above you can go leaner but only if you are willing to accept the consequences of lost water spray.

On that timing if you do it that way you are almost guaranteed to over advance the timing. The general rule of thumb is to pull the timing back about 2 - 3 degrees from the first signs of detonation.

You gain very little by running more advance than minimum max torque timing (assuming you can get to it), all over advance does it over stress the rod bearings, piston crowns, rings and head gaskets with excess cylinder pressures which occure too early in the power stroke to do you any good.

The best way is on a dyno, but you can also sort out the timing with road tunes. You should set the timing just slighlty less than the timing that gives max power. Your system will likely get you timing that is several degrees too far advanced. Once you get the best timing, add boost not timing.

Larry
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:54 PM   #6
06rexwagon
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Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming.
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Old 04-20-2007, 11:48 AM   #7
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the advise of running afr of 11.x is a safe afr, but you will not
see as much gain from the meth or meth/water injection.

but I would consult with your meth or meth/water injection
manufacturer for advise
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Old 04-20-2007, 08:05 PM   #8
06rexwagon
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Update: I installed my kit on Wednesday so I'll begin tuning sometime next week. I drove the car with the system on and it ran ok considering I haven't changed the tune. I have it disabled right now. I used a windshield washer reservoir from a Buick Regency that has a low level indicator. I installed it where the intake silencer used to be. It fit just right and only cost 4.99 at the junk yard. I ran an led for pump activation and one for low level to the steering column.
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Old 04-21-2007, 12:45 AM   #9
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cool, can't wait to see the results after its tuned
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:47 AM   #10
06rexwagon
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I'm going to dyno it with my meth tune and my pump tune on the same day to get a good comparison.
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Old 04-21-2007, 07:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
I used a windshield washer reservoir from a Buick Regency that has a low level indicator.
Did you happen to get a picture of the reservoir before it was in stalled, or note the model year of that Buick so someone could pick one up without poking through junk yards for a week?

Larry
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:18 PM   #12
06rexwagon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
Did you happen to get a picture of the reservoir before it was in stalled, or note the model year of that Buick so someone could pick one up without poking through junk yards for a week?

Larry
I believe it was a 1993. The reservoir was on the driver side mounted right up against the strut tower. I went to the u pull it and spent about an hour looking for one that fit. So that I could fill it from the hole where the intake silencer was I grabbed a filler neck from another reservoir. I believe that car was a 1988 Ford Tempo. Sorry I should have taken pictures.
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Old 05-03-2007, 09:47 AM   #13
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Results are in! Made 300/341 on 91, no meth. Made 329/382 on meth. I started at 12:1 and made 317/371 then richened up to 11.5:1 and added some timing to get my higher numbers. I was running 18.5 psi without meth and 20 with meth. I fell just short of my 330 hp goal, but I was only expecting about 360 torque so I'm really happy with how it came out.
Stage 2 Stis on this dyno usually do about 280whp and 315wtq. My stock turbo stage 2 did 250/305.

The dyno boost gauge read a little high.
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:10 AM   #14
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Oh man that's awesome. I must do this.
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:51 AM   #15
06rexwagon
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One thing I wanted to add about tuning it. On the factory 32 bit ecu rom they have the boost control cut out when the IAM falls below .35 or something really low. Since I'm running methanol and a system failure could be bad, I have it switch to wastegate pressure if the IAM falls to .90. That's a pretty good failsafe. The slightest bit of knock from a bad tank of gas or a system failure would take away boost control. I know the IAM will drop because just before I started tuning the methanol I got a bad tank of gas and my IAM fell to .81 when I had never seen it fall before. My logged a/f raios were 11.9:1 with an 11:1 target. Must have had water in it or something.
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Old 05-03-2007, 12:40 PM   #16
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Great results! Did you consider triggering the injection on MAF voltage as opposed to boost level?

Basically, figure out what MAFV is generated at xx psi boost, then what load that MAFV creates. Then the tuning is very easy because you simply rename a column in the fuel and timing tables at that load and tune the columns to the right of it for the meth.

This is an idea I was investigating before. It does require a simple controller though, not simply a pressure switch.
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Old 05-03-2007, 06:16 PM   #17
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that's sweet!!! Good numbers
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Old 05-03-2007, 07:40 PM   #18
06rexwagon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blkscooby View Post
Great results! Did you consider triggering the injection on MAF voltage as opposed to boost level?

Basically, figure out what MAFV is generated at xx psi boost, then what load that MAFV creates. Then the tuning is very easy because you simply rename a column in the fuel and timing tables at that load and tune the columns to the right of it for the meth.

This is an idea I was investigating before. It does require a simple controller though, not simply a pressure switch.
considered it but was on a budget.
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Old 05-04-2007, 08:12 AM   #19
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Oh, I had found a DIY controller for like $20 that will even do progressive control, as it will vary the voltage output to a 10A load.

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=1522

Basically you did the same thing (w/o being progressive) but I thought the MAFV route might be a little easier to tune. The end result is the same. Wicked power as your dyno plot shows !
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Old 05-04-2007, 08:46 AM   #20
06rexwagon
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Thanks. The car feels great. Who says vf39's aren't big enough for a 2.5? I think it's an excellent street turbo.
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Old 05-05-2007, 09:51 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blkscooby View Post
Oh, I had found a DIY controller for like $20 that will even do progressive control, as it will vary the voltage output to a 10A load.

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=1522

Basically you did the same thing (w/o being progressive) but I thought the MAFV route might be a little easier to tune. The end result is the same. Wicked power as your dyno plot shows !
This is exactly what I was thinking when I started reading this thread.

The dyno numbers look really good. Good job with the setup.

Triggering on MAFV seems like the best option. When it gets cold, you'll see the same loads which may happen before your 12psi trigger that you would see above that same trigger during warmer conditions. You'll be running timing and fueling profile then without the injection being activated that you would now with it on. It may give you some trouble down the road. Pressure is not the best way of gauging when to trigger the spray because it does not tell the full story. It really comes down to how much air you're taking in which drives your load and that dials in your ignition and fueling map locations which is what you tuned for the injection. Doing it based on MAF is safer because it is what your maps are tuned on, not pressure. You may get yourself into trouble when weather gets cold. Seriously consider this option.

Again, the results looks great. Now it's time to make it as reliable and consistent as possible.
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Old 05-05-2007, 10:04 AM   #22
06rexwagon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post
This is exactly what I was thinking when I started reading this thread.

The dyno numbers look really good. Good job with the setup.

Triggering on MAFV seems like the best option. When it gets cold, you'll see the same loads which may happen before your 12psi trigger that you would see above that same trigger during warmer conditions. You'll be running timing and fueling profile then without the injection being activated that you would now with it on. It may give you some trouble down the road. Pressure is not the best way of gauging when to trigger the spray because it does not tell the full story. It really comes down to how much air you're taking in which drives your load and that dials in your ignition and fueling map locations which is what you tuned for the injection. Doing it based on MAF is safer because it is what your maps are tuned on, not pressure. You may get yourself into trouble when weather gets cold. Seriously consider this option.

Again, the results looks great. Now it's time to make it as reliable and consistent as possible.
I thought about that too, so I actually have the car tuned as though methanol starts spraying at 12psi but I have it actuating at 10. I notice no loss in spool and it gives me a little margin of safety. I may eventually get a different controller but in the meantime the sytem works for me.
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