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Old 04-22-2007, 11:32 AM   #1
texas05sti
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Default Perrin 816's giving me a lean condition

I put in my modded Perrin 816's yesterday, rescaled the injectors and am now getting a lean condition. I have a 20g, external tial, full catless turboback and now the 816's. I'm tuning with Enginuity.

From my understanding, I shouldn't have needed to re-scale the MAF just for injectors if nothing else has been changed. I am running wastegate boost (.6bar), and had it tuned pretty well for that boost with the stock injectors in. I was expecting a richer condition, and am totally lost as to why it is running lean.

Anyone have any insight on why this would be happening? I thought I had a fairly good sense of what I need to do to tune the car, but maybe I bit off more than I can chew.
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:41 AM   #2
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Did you have the injectors cleaned and flow tested prior to installing? Guessing not. So there may be a lot of variance in the injectors and even all of them possibly not being close to 816. Some people can get away with not doing it and just installing them but sometimes its money well spent to do it. I would talk to one of your local tuners about it. Do you have a wideband? Just scale the injectors down to like 790's possibly and see what happens. Or go through your fuel maps and richen everything a little but its easier to scale down the injectors.
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:13 PM   #3
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My initial guess is that your injector scalar is off and will need to be adjusted.
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Old 04-22-2007, 01:26 PM   #4
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I do have a wideband. I rescaled to 790 and it's still idling lean. I may scale it down even more and see what that does.
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Old 04-22-2007, 02:35 PM   #5
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790 is still too large. The setting is not actually in CC/min, even if your editor shows it as CC/min, so it will never match the supposed rating of your injectors. IME you always need to set it smaller. Try around 750.

Other than that, post a log with all fuel trims (learning, correction, etc) and front O2 signal (NOT your wideband, it is not needed for this problem).
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Old 04-22-2007, 03:26 PM   #6
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Thanks man. I'll try that out and see if it works. I'll do some logging this afternoon and will try and post them up. I'll tune it on higher boost throughout the week, i'm still bypassing my boost controller right now to ensure the injectors are workign correctly.
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Old 04-22-2007, 08:37 PM   #7
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I was told by a very credible source that with the perrins you have to scale them around 610. I did that and it richened up. Still idling in the 14.8-15.1 range, but I can live with that. I just did a couple pulls with the boost controller hooked up and need to pull fuel majorly. My wb02 was layin around 10:1 through the pull, so I'm gonna pull some fuel and see if that helps.

I'll mess with it daily till I get it tuned nicely. I'm still a little concerned with the kc of -5 throughout the pull, but that isn't gonna blow my motor. I'll pull some more timing when I flash it again.

Thanks for your help.
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:00 PM   #8
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14.8-15.1 is the proper range for closed loop operation.
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Old 04-23-2007, 12:21 AM   #9
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Really? I thought it was supposed to be 14.7. I know it won't sit at 14.7 and not move, but anytime I see 15's on the gauge I get a little nervous. I know that it's not imperative that it idles at stoich, but it's nice to make an attempt.

I guess I got it nailed down then.
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Old 04-23-2007, 05:38 PM   #10
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I saw this thread last night. Me and a fellow open ecu user had used 810 for the injector scaling. The cars idle was ****ty since i started it saturday and drove it all yesterday. Today it kept dying and it was heating up. I pulled over, plugged in ECu Explorer and saw 16's and 17's at idle. Got very scared. Dropped them to 790 and still saw 16's. Dropped to 750 and said 15.5-16.3 so then i dropped them to 720 and its sitting solid at 14.7 at around 700-750 rpm idle.
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texas05sti View Post
I put in my modded Perrin 816's yesterday, rescaled the injectors and am now getting a lean condition. I have a 20g, external tial, full catless turboback and now the 816's. I'm tuning with Enginuity.

From my understanding, I shouldn't have needed to re-scale the MAF just for injectors if nothing else has been changed. I am running wastegate boost (.6bar), and had it tuned pretty well for that boost with the stock injectors in. I was expecting a richer condition, and am totally lost as to why it is running lean.

Anyone have any insight on why this would be happening? I thought I had a fairly good sense of what I need to do to tune the car, but maybe I bit off more than I can chew.
Delete I answered my own quesion.

Last edited by wuuusaa; 04-23-2007 at 09:46 PM. Reason: your using open ecu as engine management
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Old 04-24-2007, 11:25 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSTI2006 View Post
I saw this thread last night. Me and a fellow open ecu user had used 810 for the injector scaling. The cars idle was ****ty since i started it saturday and drove it all yesterday. Today it kept dying and it was heating up. I pulled over, plugged in ECu Explorer and saw 16's and 17's at idle. Got very scared. Dropped them to 790 and still saw 16's. Dropped to 750 and said 15.5-16.3 so then i dropped them to 720 and its sitting solid at 14.7 at around 700-750 rpm idle.
Yeah, I scaled them to 610 and was still getting crazy fuel dump at WOT. I rescaled to 630 and am still gettins the same, so I'm gonna go even higher. I think I'm gonna try 680-690 this evening and see how that works out. I need to add some boost as well, I think that will help. I'm only hitting ~15 pounds right now, so I still have a ways to go. I'm getting there, slowly but surely.
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Old 04-25-2007, 12:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texas05sti View Post
Yeah, I scaled them to 610 and was still getting crazy fuel dump at WOT. I rescaled to 630 and am still gettins the same, so I'm gonna go even higher. I think I'm gonna try 680-690 this evening and see how that works out. I need to add some boost as well, I think that will help. I'm only hitting ~15 pounds right now, so I still have a ways to go. I'm getting there, slowly but surely.
I still have them at 720 after 5 hours of tuning today.....mainly downtime since we were swapping info back and forth with my laptop and the tuners.....i had AFR's dropping into the 9's....going back tomorow to work on the Big MAF setting some more and the timing...
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Old 04-25-2007, 12:44 PM   #14
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I didn't get a chance to mess with mine. I'm gonna need to switch to a Big Maf setup cause i'm pulling 4.7v on 15-16 pounds and that will go up when I mess with it some more tonight.
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Old 04-27-2007, 01:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
790 is still too large. The setting is not actually in CC/min, even if your editor shows it as CC/min, so it will never match the supposed rating of your injectors. IME you always need to set it smaller. Try around 750.
Wow.....I have modified stockers the were flow tested at 850 within 0.5***37; (very nice work from Deatschwerks (SP?))

My tuner had mine set to 890. I kept getting system lean, so I went back and he retuned it and had them set at 865. After about 200 miles I would get a system lean CEL. I just kept resetting the ECU as a temporary solution. bad idea because now I have a spun rod bearing, most likely due to detonation from running lean

...when I get the new block, should I scale them way down to less than 800? I need some sort of map to drive the car around untill a good tuner flies down. (BTW my intake is 2.5 inches untill I can get a new one, should the MAF be scaled at all?)
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Old 04-27-2007, 02:11 PM   #16
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You're placing WAY too much importance on the value. Use what works looking at your fuel trims.

Again, the ECU actually doesn't use cc/min. It's an inverse value, some sort of ontime for a certain airmass (like on time to match stoic 1g of air). Stop worrying so much about it matching some number you got from a flow test or rated flow from the manufacturer. Use what works by looking at your fuel trims, confirm open loop is still right with a wideband.

I would not suggest swapping intakes and injectors at the same time. Do one or the other, adjust the correct parameter (injector size/deadtime for injectors, MAF scale for intake), make sure it is right, then swap the other part. There is such a close correlation between the two if you swap both at the same time you will never know if you're tuning the wrong parameter for the right part change.
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:07 PM   #17
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I followed this Street Tuner User Guide recommendation:

Quote:
With the engine idling, make adjustments to the injector scale value until ( A/F Correction + A/F Learning ) = +/- 5%. The closer you can get to 0% is ideal, but do not begin tuning any other fuel maps until you at least have it within the +/- 5% window of total correction.
My combined A/F Correction + A/F Learning at idle is under 5% with a injector scale of 620.
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Old 05-01-2007, 12:52 AM   #18
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Mine found their happy place at 700.
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