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Old 05-08-2007, 09:18 AM   #1
WRX2ning
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Default stage 2 log, timing look good?

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Last edited by WRX2ning; 05-08-2007 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 05-08-2007, 10:11 AM   #2
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not suppose to post xpt logs elsewhere without permission
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Old 05-08-2007, 10:13 AM   #3
WRX2ning
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Not even simple datalogs?
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:16 PM   #4
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Datalogs can be reverse engineered...kinda...
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:27 PM   #5
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how do you reverse engineer logs to get the entire map? Logs are a derived product of the car itself, no matter what xpt says, you can still post logs.

I've personally held off buying an xpt map just because of how tight lipped they are on log posting. any company that needs to hide the results of their product that much isn't something i want to be part of.
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Old 05-08-2007, 12:52 PM   #6
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arg, my least favorite part of his policy. Everything else is great.
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Old 05-08-2007, 02:33 PM   #7
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Reverse engineering a map for for the ECU from a log would be VERY difficult to do. There's so many factors involved when the numbers get pumped out to the logger that building a base map based on the logs would be an exercise in inaccuracy. The logger itself already introduces some level of error already which just makes things more difficult if you tried to rebuild a map from a posted log.

For boost, you could correlate the target with the RPM and try to make a base map out of it. But then you have compensation tables based on IAT and atmospheric pressure that are in play so you can't tell how much of that effects the readings. Was it 60% WGDCs with 0 comp or 55% with 5% comp due to IAT and 0 on pressure? I think you get my point here All you know is that given that temp and pressure, to hit that target, you need X amount of cycles. After that, you still stuck with building everything else by yourself. Also, you only get a fraction of the map from the log. Not much help there if I tried to rip it off. And then there are TD tables that will also alter your boost profile. If you can piece it all together from a log successfully, man, you earned that map and you should get it because that sounds like a ton of work. You'd be better of just buying it.

This is all just for boost. After that, there's fueling and timing which are all subject to the same compesation table, masking agents. It's just impossible to tell what you have in the map exactly from the log alone.

So, the policy seem questionable to me. I think it only hurts the customers since no one can help an XPT owner but a single person that has limited resources and it provides no security what so ever to the originator. I respect the fact ev8siv3 is protecting his work which he should but this tactic seems like bad business. If someone wants to steal, they will steal. All it takes is one person that bought the map to send it to his friend.

On the flip side, for the complainers hey, you knew what the policy was when you bought the map. Can't cry about it now after you bought it and agreed to the terms of acceptable use. Just playing devil's advocate on this one

Well, this is my opinion and you know what they say about opinions they're like ......, everybody's got one
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Old 05-10-2007, 11:44 AM   #8
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The real reason is that the XPT maps are complete POSes which detonate and the car learns to pull timing. The creator has a miscontrued view on how the stock ECU calculates final timing. He adds 'extra knock correction to account for higher octane gas'. What ends up happening is the car tries to run full timing (base + ignition), detonates, then learns how much timing to pull and remembers that after a few pulls. But the car will actively detonate during the first few pulls after an ECU reset.
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Old 05-10-2007, 01:08 PM   #9
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I know that he made not posting logs his policy, but where on his site or anywhere does it say that that is part of his terms of use.


My Stage 2 XPT logs weren't pretty either, so I tweaked it A LOT and now just run a free base map someone posted that I've editted a bit.

I'll post them if you want.
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Old 05-10-2007, 02:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggyrama View Post
Reverse engineering a map for for the ECU from a log would be VERY difficult to do. There's so many factors involved when the numbers get pumped out to the logger that building a base map based on the logs would be an exercise in inaccuracy. The logger itself already introduces some level of error already which just makes things more difficult if you tried to rebuild a map from a posted log.
Exactly.

More than likely, a person who would be able to generate a map based a some sets of logs would never be buying somebody else's work in the first place. They'd just make their own map to begin with.

IMHO, the whole policy of not allowing XPT logs is abolutely rediculous.
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Old 05-10-2007, 03:44 PM   #11
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After comparing a few other stage 2 maps from other members on the Enginuity forums I saw how differently Braden (XPT builder) builds his timing maps, especially his KC map. Most people build up their KC maps, gradually increasing to the same value on the top end. He does the complete opposite. Is there a reason behind this?
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Old 05-10-2007, 04:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX2ning View Post
After comparing a few other stage 2 maps from other members on the Enginuity forums I saw how differently Braden (XPT builder) builds his timing maps, especially his KC map. Most people build up their KC maps, gradually increasing to the same value on the top end. He does the complete opposite. Is there a reason behind this?
see above... most (the safe way) is to start low, and let the ECU scale up. his approach is to start high, and then let the ECU safeguards kick in to save the engine and scale things down.
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Old 05-11-2007, 01:51 AM   #13
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ahhh... I see now. I didnt get the big picture at first but now I see what MRF82 is saying. XPT maps are built with tons of extra KC early on in the KC tables, which detonate until the car learns to pull all that excess timing and function properly again. Please correct me if Im wrong.

Im assuming that my next job is to flatten out the KC tables and steadily increase the map to one solid value, in the higher RPMs, to help recognize any detonation when tuning in the future.
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Old 05-11-2007, 03:36 AM   #14
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The problem with a high KC in the light/moderate load range and low KC in the high load/rpm range is this:

Let's say that your tune is nearly perfect. You're running as much timing as possible without detonating, IAM is maxed out, etc. KC is 10 in the light/moderate load/rpm range and 3 in the high load/rpm range

Now you've managed to fill up with a bad tank of fuel. The ECU does it's job and in your light/moderate load/rpm range driving it has picked up knock and pulled the IAM to 12 from 16 so now KC is 7.5 (pulling 2.5* of timing) in the light/moderate load/rpm range and 2.25 (pulling less than 1* of timing) in the high load/rpm range. Now you go do a WOT run at as soon as you hit the high load area after the turbo spools you get instant knock and the ECU has to pull at least 3* of timing just to get knock under control. And unfortunately because WOT is generally outside the range of rough timing correction the IAM doesn't change so the ECU will aggressively push timing back to the desired KC levels and you will knock repeatedly until it finally learns.

There's a reason the stock KC maps are fairly consistent (if somewhat lumpy).
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Old 05-11-2007, 06:09 AM   #15
WRX2ning
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Good explanation drees! That is exactly the feedback I was looking for on why it is not the best idea to have such high KC values early on in the lower RPM/load areas.
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Old 05-14-2007, 04:14 PM   #16
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A few weeks back I was about to purchase and XPT map until I came across a whole mess of rediculousness and bad tuning and business practices by ev8sive.

1. Anyone with the knowledge to reverse engineer his maps from his logs wouldn't do so because they know his maps stink and they wouldn't want them. Anyone with this kind of knowledge would creat their own maps.

2. If you have a problem with the car, it is most likely a result of his tuning, so why would you want him to be the only one allowed to look at the logs and try to fix it? You wouldn't, yet you can't show the logs to anyone else?

3. What is he going to do if you do post the logs? He says he won't provide support right? Why would you want it though?

4. Do a search as far as his tuning methods go, he is WIDELY criticized in the Subaru tuning community. The main reasons are mentioned in this thread. His methods give the car room to make more power if you're using 93 octane BUT he is knowingly allowing the car to detonate and then waiting for the ECU to fix itself. When the ECU has to correct timing for knock, that is a tuning PROBLEM. It is a PROBLEM that he is PURPOSELY tuning into the ecu. Any you don't want to post his logs because he won't provide you with support or updated maps? Why would you want them is my question?

5. Just say no!
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Old 05-14-2007, 04:41 PM   #17
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Hmm, preventing people from posting their own logs from their own cars?

Simple solution: edit post: "Check out the log from my car, I have modified EM"
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Old 05-14-2007, 07:08 PM   #18
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I really don't think the gag on posting logs is reasonable, either.

When you measure the "depth" of your KC on top of base timing, keep in mind timing is relative. Dropping from 36 to 34 isn't the same as dropping from 20 to 18. My KC maps really aren't all that far off the stock maps. I think it is a good guide.

I would keep it deeper in areas where timing is changing fast. I.e. where the timing map is steep if viewed in 3D. Like in moderate loads around 3000-4000, timing dives quick as load goes up. Or where your turbo really takes off and boost rises quickly, which may be about the same spot.
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Old 05-14-2007, 10:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllAWD View Post
Hmm, preventing people from posting their own logs from their own cars?

Simple solution: edit post: "Check out the log from my car, I have modified EM"
Logs don't mean crap unless you can see what the basemap is.

For example, somebody could post up a log that shows a nice 9* of KC down the board -- looks good, right? Well what if the basemap actually calls for 13* of KC to be added in.....
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Old 05-15-2007, 11:34 AM   #20
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When all this first started, I was interested in his maps. Cheap, and open maps sounded like a good thing. Then he posted the "no logs" thing, and removed me from being a customer. I want open methods for a reason.
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Old 05-15-2007, 02:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wall of tvs View Post
Logs don't mean crap unless you can see what the basemap is.

For example, somebody could post up a log that shows a nice 9* of KC down the board -- looks good, right? Well what if the basemap actually calls for 13* of KC to be added in.....
Truth.
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Old 05-19-2007, 11:54 PM   #22
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It appears the policy is to keep people from criticizing his maps rather than reverse engineering them He seems to have all the noobs scared straight.

Last edited by silver arrow; 05-20-2007 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 05-20-2007, 12:15 PM   #23
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subscribed to see what ev8siv has to say.
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:34 PM   #24
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dammit, I just purchased a tactrix cable to run this map. I guess i should think twice. I'm really disappointed that these maps are garbage. There must be an opensource stage 2 map SOMEWHERE that is decent? Maybe somewhere on enginuity?
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackoutWRX View Post
dammit, I just purchased a tactrix cable to run this map. I guess i should think twice. I'm really disappointed that these maps are garbage. There must be an opensource stage 2 map SOMEWHERE that is decent? Maybe somewhere on enginuity?
The 3gsucks map looks decent as a base map, although I particularly dont like the target boost table. IMO, its a good starting point, and probably the one Ill use when I get my Stealthback...
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