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Old 05-09-2007, 02:54 PM   #1
WRX2ning
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Default How to make timing adjustments on Enginuity?

After doing a lot of logging, I know that I want to retard my timing a tad on the top end of things (6K RPM+) to reduce knock (-KC). I am just unsure of how to go about adjusting it exactly. I know to adjust using small increments , but what cells am I adjusting the values in? Do I adjust at the RPM/Load I am seeing the knock occur?

My main concern is that I do not want to throw off the ECU by having the difference between the cells being too great. Is this a reasonable concern?

Thanks,
Tim
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Old 05-09-2007, 06:39 PM   #2
Jon [in CT]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX2ning View Post
After doing a lot of logging, I know that I want to retard my timing a tad on the top end of things (6K RPM+) to reduce knock (-KC).
Given that your ECU doesn't even listen for knock at 6K RPM+, it seems strange that you would see -KC at those RPMs.
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Old 05-09-2007, 11:04 PM   #3
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it seems that if the ECU is still hearing knock before 6000RPM, whatever happened before knock listening turns off keeps happening. so if he is at -1 KC at 5999RPM, it will keep -1KC up till redline. atleast thats how things look to me on most of my logs.
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Old 05-10-2007, 01:51 AM   #4
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Oddly enough, my IAM is still a strong 16 throughout my entire log, but my KC after about 6K SOMETIMES dips to -.5. Most logs I am sitting right at 2 after 6K. Here is an example.

Mods are:
MY02 WRX MT, gutted up, ERZ DP, K&N filter, STi axel back, intake silencer delete

It is a 91 Octance map and I run 93.

Negative KC:


Normal KC:


How am I getting negative KC after 6K RPM then? I am aware that the motor's knock sensor stops listening to engine noise after 6K, thats why my N00b self is thrown for a loop.

Last edited by WRX2ning; 05-10-2007 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 05-10-2007, 03:14 AM   #5
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If that KC is "normal" either you have some funky timing maps or your car is knocking a good deal at high loads. But I can only guess.

http://www.enginuity.org/viewtopic.php?t=1713
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Old 05-10-2007, 03:44 AM   #6
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If I was knocking, my IAM wouldnt be 16, would it? I do see some timing being taken away at the same time my KC drops. Should I pull back timing a tad right there?

drees, in reference to your link, I cannot post a log of my whole RPM bandwidth because my clutch slips under full load under 4.5K RPM. The log would look all jacked up. I also purchased my map, so I am not allowed to distribute that.

Last edited by WRX2ning; 05-10-2007 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 05-10-2007, 08:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX2ning View Post
If I was knocking, my IAM wouldnt be 16, would it? I do see some timing being taken away at the same time my KC drops. Should I pull back timing a tad right there?

drees, in reference to your link, I cannot post a log of my whole RPM bandwidth because my clutch slips under full load under 4.5K RPM. The log would look all jacked up. I also purchased my map, so I am not allowed to distribute that.
Purchased your map. hmmmm- that could be where the funky timing and knocking is coming from.

Anyway, you want to reduce the base timing in the RPM/load areas where you are seeing knock and then smooth the adjacent cells to keep the timing smooth.
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Old 05-10-2007, 08:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [in CT] View Post
Given that your ECU doesn't even listen for knock at 6K RPM+, it seems strange that you would see -KC at those RPMs.
Likely this is fine learning correction that is being applied. Fine correction is applied in ranges. Depending on what ecu revision he is running for the 02, if there are any learned corrections at 5000+ rpm or 5700+ rpm, these would always be applied to these ranges. So, for example, although the maximum fine correction range is 5800 rpm, if there was sufficient knock at say 5100 rpm (based on the the revision with the 5000+ rpm row), then the negative correction would be applied to all engine speeds above 5000 rpm.

IAM might still be 16 because it is only reevaluated in a more narrow rpm and load range.
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Old 05-10-2007, 08:58 AM   #9
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I appreciate all your input to help explain this to me. It is really helping me out.

This might need to be another post, but I am confused when it comes to the KC map and the base ignition map. How do these correlate exactly? In other words, if I change a value on the KC map, what do I have to change on the base ignition map to make everything work properly?
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Old 05-10-2007, 09:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX2ning View Post
I appreciate all your input to help explain this to me. It is really helping me out.

This might need to be another post, but I am confused when it comes to the KC map and the base ignition map. How do these correlate exactly? In other words, if I change a value on the KC map, what do I have to change on the base ignition map to make everything work properly?
For your ecu:
KC = timing advance * (iam/16) + feedback correction + fine learning correction
Total ignition timing = base timing + KC + other timing compensations

Other timing compensations include those based on coolant temp and intake temp and a number of others.
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Old 05-10-2007, 11:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX2ning View Post
If I was knocking, my IAM wouldnt be 16, would it? I do see some timing being taken away at the same time my KC drops.
http://www.enginuity.org/Documentation/TuningFAQ has a whole lot of information on timing.

As mentioned, the ECU only reduced IAM if it sees knock during certain RPM/load ranges. Stock for the 03 WRX, that is between 2000-4400 rpm and 1.0-3.6 load.
Quote:
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drees, in reference to your link, I cannot post a log of my whole RPM bandwidth because my clutch slips under full load under 4.5K RPM. The log would look all jacked up. I also purchased my map, so I am not allowed to distribute that.
Hmm, you might want to read the terms of your purchase, some tuners don't even want you to post logs for fear of someone reverse engineering their work. Frankly, if their tune generates logs like yours they can keep their precious "IP".
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Old 05-10-2007, 03:32 PM   #12
WRX2ning
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[url]Frankly, if their tune generates logs like yours they can keep their precious "IP".
What is so wrong with the logs besides the obvious low KC values? Is there anything my n00b eyes arent seeing?

blkscooby, I slowly started to reduce timing at the RPM/Load cells I was seeing serious timing/KC drop (in the fashion you described), and my KC has gone back up to the map's specified KC. Thanks for the help
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Old 05-11-2007, 03:03 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by WRX2ning View Post
What is so wrong with the logs besides the obvious low KC values? Is there anything my n00b eyes arent seeing?
I could tell you but then I'd be giving away my trade secrets.

Seriously:

In both logs, generally when KC gets close to zero for an extended period, the ECU has seen some sustained knock.
In the "Neg KC" log I see 2 instances of the ECU seeing a decent knock event (line 73 & 75) where it pulled 2* of timing teach.
In the "Normal KC" log I see 1 instance of the ECU seeing a decent knock event at line 61 where it pulled 2* of timing.

What is the map's KC value at those load points? The stock map is 7+ so the ECU could be pulling 5* of timing.

The stock ECU wil generally _increase_ KC above 6k RPM so that the ECU has more authority to pull timing when the IAM drops to reduce the chance of excessive knock in the case of bad fuel, clogged fuel filters, etc.

Any time I see a car knocking like this at full throttle but with the IAM still pegged tells me that the map is way too aggressive at high loads the map hasn't adjusted the rough correction ranges to account for the higher loads the ECU is seeing and also hasn't had the light/moderate loads tuned to match the high load areas.

Please go read the Enginuity Tuning FAQ it answers a few basic questions like these and more (but is still very rough around the edges).
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Old 05-11-2007, 07:29 AM   #14
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Please go read the Enginuity Tuning FAQ it answers a few basic questions like these and more (but is still very rough around the edges).
I have read that FAQ over and over again. It touches base on a few of my questions, but does not go into enough depth to really explain things like you have drees.

To answer your question, the map value for KC at line 61 is 5.98. So it is nowhere close. I forgot to log load in the first log so I dont know what the map value is for lines 73/75

Last edited by WRX2ning; 05-11-2007 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 05-11-2007, 12:40 PM   #15
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I have also noticed that many people forget to rescale the fuel and timing maps which can cause them to run lean/ knock when the added power causes higher engine loads.

I ALWAYS do this first to ensure safety.
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Old 05-11-2007, 12:54 PM   #16
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I wish I had a wideband to effectivley tune my fuel. There is no other way besides using an EGT guage, right?
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Old 05-11-2007, 01:31 PM   #17
drees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX2ning View Post
I have read that FAQ over and over again. It touches base on a few of my questions, but does not go into enough depth to really explain things like you have drees.
If you have suggestions for additional FAQ questions please let me know and I'll do my best to get them up there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX2ning View Post
To answer your question, the map value for KC at line 61 is 5.98. So it is nowhere close. I forgot to log load in the first log so I dont know what the map value is for lines 73/75
Yep, that's quite a bit of timing being pulled. The load in your first map is likely close to the same since the boost is the same unless the weather changed or you used a different gear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blkscooby View Post
I have also noticed that many people forget to rescale the fuel and timing maps which can cause them to run lean/ knock when the added power causes higher engine loads.

I ALWAYS do this first to ensure safety.
Yep, a very good idea. Rescaling is a very good idea for Stage 2+ cars and often a good idea for Stage 1 cars, too.
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Originally Posted by WRX2ning View Post
I wish I had a wideband to effectivley tune my fuel. There is no other way besides using an EGT guage, right?
WBO2 is the best way. The Innovate LC-1 costs about $200.

Someone posted an open design for a WBO2 controller on the Enginuity site I think for like $50 or something so you just need to add the WBO2 which costs about $50-70.

Here's the thread, look at the end for more info: http://www.enginuity.org/viewtopic.p...and+controller

Here's the site: http://www.14point7.com/JAW/JAW.htm
Costs $45 for the DIY version and $55 for the built version. They must be selling OK since the site says they are out until May 21st.
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