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Old 06-15-2016, 11:33 PM   #1
Profoxcg
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Default KW Clubsport 2 way adjustable, versus Ohlins DFV

I am looking for a track setup guys for my '15 STI

I have been looking at Ohlins Road & Track versus KW Offerings.

I called KW today and I was told that I wanted to get was the Clubsport line for a more track (stiffer) and less street performance. I was told the variant line is more of a "performance street setup" - okay great.

So I am looking at the CS. I am not sure I need 3 way adjustable, so I may go with the 2 way.

Does anyone have any 1rst hand experience with these kits?

One thing I like about the KW is the additional fluid reservoir.
I don't like that front shock body does not thread into the shock perch like the Ohlins.

The Ohlins, are just beautiful and I like that the shocks bodies are threaded and thread in to the shock mounts which keep the travel unchanged. Not sure is this is that important.

Just looking for some thoughts thanks.
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Old 06-16-2016, 01:19 AM   #2
lukethedork
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Having the shock body thread into the lower mount is mostly marketing. The KW shocks are built to the correct length for the vehicle so why would you want to change the length? Your ride height is separate.
Having said that the Ohlins DFV is no marketing gimmick. It really does work. But it has drawbacks. None of which would concern someone living in the city. Basically you don't want the DFV for rough terrain. If you venture out camping or drive on dirt roads you do not want them. This doesn't mean they are bad for rough paved roads. I don't care how bad you think your potholes are. Unless you live in China, Africa, Russia, or Australia your paved roads are fine for the Ohlins.

Personally I would choose the Ohlins. A single adjuster like they have is all you need to adjust the ride comfort to your required level. Don't think you'll be 'tuning' some special 3 ways in. If the valving is right from the start then why would you change it?
This is coming from someone who has experience with high end shocks. Last set was close to $10,000.
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Old 06-16-2016, 10:58 AM   #3
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I have heard very good things about the Ohlins. The issue with them as far as I know is there availabel travel is less then the KWs, by a fair bit.

This was from a few yrs ago, so I don't remember the details.

Maybe someone can confirm?
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:49 PM   #4
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:19 PM   #5
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Talk to racecomp engineering. They have their own version of the 2 and 3 way KWs that offer slightly tweaked spring rates and valving. And you can specify your own rates if you want.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:54 PM   #6
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you need to ask yourself what are your goal... is your car fully built ? or is it based off a stage 1 or stage 2 set up. is it a track only car? or a both track and street? really depends on your mods and what your goals are. if you think you need a 3 way when you a stage 1 car that is running the track on stock wheels and tires then its over kill. if its both track and street car i would go with the 2 way KW clubsports. i have them on my car and they are amazing.

and just FYI the additional reservoir has nothing to do with performance and they are used for shorter shocks from what i was told by KW where they use to charge the shocks. there is not oil in that thing.

Last edited by bmxhotsauce; 06-16-2016 at 10:17 PM.
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:08 AM   #7
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Hey guys,

Thank you for all the replies. I was away from a computer until now so let me answer some questions and make some comments of my own to explain what I am planning.

First of all I want to ask this to get better insight:

Why does it seem that it is so important what stage the car is, or if it has a roll cage whenever this topic comes up. In my mind, the car can be completely stock or stage 1 or 2 with a mild tune and upgraded fuel pump for instance and to me that is completely irrelevant to what the suspension goes in. To me it is all about the performance of the shock, and it adjustability. I would have to dump money into a set just to find later I need to sell them and buy something else. I don't need 3 way adjustments I agree. But I believe that independently from power mods, someone who chooses to dedicate their car to track duty can spend their effort in better brakes and suspension. In the end, power is not everything. Look at those Miatas !! (they are sexy and fast around a track).

I have a daily, That car is on Bilstein PSS and I like those coil over for a daily. They are stiffer than what my car can with, but still not hard to where they bounce around on the street. However they are not a setup for the track.

With that said while I have a daily I may take the STI out to a car meet , or to grocery store one day, or heck the office on a Friday. However the STI is destined to be the track car I take to AutoX and track days. I am planning on stripping the interior and eventually putting a roll-cage (safety first).


@jamal: I contacted racecomp, but no answer.
@bmxhotsause: As I mentioned above it is a track car and will take out once in a while for short drive. I don't care for a confortable ride. I think 3 way would be overkill at my level. But 2 way seems like they would offer me some room to grow. That is important when making an investment like this. I do plan to upgrade the wheels tires.

So the additional reservoir doesn't provide any cooling advantage by housing more fluid?

@lukethedork: I am not really looking for comfortable. the more I read about the ohlins it seems they are on part with the KW V1/V2 and are more for street use.

I was always under the impression that lowering the shock body into the lower mount allowed you to keep a full degree of suspension travel while just lowering the car. Where as with threaded bodies only, if you lower the spring seat perch, you are decreasing your travel, or am I wrong?
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Old 06-17-2016, 03:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
Talk to racecomp engineering. They have their own version of the 2 and 3 way KWs that offer slightly tweaked spring rates and valving. And you can specify your own rates if you want.
My question would be why would you want to? Tell the expert what you want and then let him set the rate. If he can't understand what you want then get yourself another shock tuner. If you know more about shocks than your specialist then do it yourself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmxhotsauce View Post
and just FYI the additional reservoir has nothing to do with performance and they are used for shorter shocks from what i was told by KW where they use to charge the shocks. there is not oil in that thing.
Not exactly true. First off there is oil in the reservoir. But it is not completely filled with oil like most people would think.
Without getting too technical. we first need to understand that the shock shaft on these nitrogen filled shocks adds to the spring rate. The pressure increases as the piston shaft enters the shock body. This increases the spring rate as the shock compresses.
Because manufacturers package suspension tightly there is usually limited space. The nitrogen volume is very low. Which means that when the shock compresses the nitrogen pressure can easily double (in some cases even more).
Just for an example. With a reservoir shock it may be filled 1/4 with oil and the rest with nitrogen. This means that there is a large volume of nitrogen and the shock compressing will not affect the nitrogen pressure so much. Often to the point that you can just disregard the increase completely.
Due to the fact that they remove the dividing piston from the body, the piston can now travel the full length of the shock body. This allows for more travel for a given shock length.
They also provide additional cooling.
However on high-end shocks they almost always take advantage of the nitrogen reservoir as a way to add additional valves. These valves are usually very similar to the base valves in a twin tube shock. They are often used in a similar way as well.

PS. I should have mentioned that pretty much any decent monotube shock will use a dividing piston that separates the nitrogen and oil. When reservoirs are added then the dividing piston is moved from the shock body to the reservoir.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Profoxcg View Post
So the additional reservoir doesn't provide any cooling advantage by housing more fluid?

@lukethedork: I am not really looking for comfortable. the more I read about the ohlins it seems they are on part with the KW V1/V2 and are more for street use.

I was always under the impression that lowering the shock body into the lower mount allowed you to keep a full degree of suspension travel while just lowering the car. Where as with threaded bodies only, if you lower the spring seat perch, you are decreasing your travel, or am I wrong?
The reservoir will provide additional cooling. But do you need it?

Yes. My opinion is that these are all street shocks. That does not mean they do not work on the track though.

There is more to it than just lowering the shock body into the mount, or decreasing travel on a fixed shock.
The KW will likely allow for more total suspension travel. If you are concerned mostly with track performance then this should not matter so much.
It is true that bump travel is decreased when lowering a fixed shock like the KW.
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Old 06-17-2016, 03:54 AM   #9
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Default KW Clubsport 2 way adjustable, versus Ohlins DFV

Your wrong the reservoir has a bladder in it where it's filled with nitrogen.. It has no oil in it.. How I know? I had my shocks rebuilt not to long ago from KW and in the build sheet you can see what parts were used . Maybe you guys should call KW and ask since there are so many people on forums that think they know so much about companies when they know jack and all are key board commandos. Sounds the the OP needs to first learn how to drive on the track before swapping parts out .. Or for starters maybe get a better wheel and tire combo then move on to suspension parts.

Last edited by bmxhotsauce; 06-17-2016 at 04:00 AM.
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Old 06-17-2016, 07:14 AM   #10
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You're partially right. They use a different type of bladder than is usual. It's still a divider and there will still be oil in the reservoir.

https://robrobinette.com/S2000KWV3.htm

Perhaps you should go ride your BMX at the skate park where it is normal for kids to get angry over nothing.

PS. Perhaps you could tell us why KW uses a rubber bladder instead of a solid dividing piston? I already know the answer so don't just say something random to save face......

Last edited by lukethedork; 06-17-2016 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 06-17-2016, 06:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukethedork View Post
You're partially right. They use a different type of bladder than is usual. It's still a divider and there will still be oil in the reservoir.

https://robrobinette.com/S2000KWV3.htm

Perhaps you should go ride your BMX at the skate park where it is normal for kids to get angry over nothing.

PS. Perhaps you could tell us why KW uses a rubber bladder instead of a solid dividing piston? I already know the answer so don't just say something random to save face......

Sorry I'm not KW . If you want the correct answers to that contact KW . But once again your incorrect . You original statement you made was there is only oil in the reservoir but not after I said that's not true now you are back on the bandwagon with there is a bladder but oil.. Still you are wrong.. Doesn't matter the OP should learn how to drive his car first then make changes in my personal experience . Best of luck .
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:24 PM   #12
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yes it sounds like I need to drive stock before swapping parts out. I agree. and let me add that I could care less about a big turbo or other power mods to bring my car up in HP like the "kids" do.

I do tell you this, I am upgrading my oil pan and pick up shortly because I don't want to starve my car on the track. You may agree or disagree, that is what makes this country great. =)

Back to the shocks, part of this exercise is to start learning about what is out is out there for when I (and only I) feel it is time to upgrade. Call this part of my research.

I will call KW next week and ask if their application for an STI has piggie back reservoirs or not and why. As a potential customer I think it is okay to do that. I am also interested to know how much their suspension weights. I know the Ohlins are alum. KW is Stainless Steel.

I am looking to loose some weight if possible. Just give you guys an idea of where I am going in the near future, is to also change the stock wheels for some OZ untraleggeras to save some weight where I think it is important.
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmxhotsauce View Post
Sorry I'm not KW . If you want the correct answers to that contact KW . But once again your incorrect . You original statement you made was there is only oil in the reservoir but not after I said that's not true now you are back on the bandwagon with there is a bladder but oil.. Still you are wrong.. Doesn't matter the OP should learn how to drive his car first then make changes in my personal experience . Best of luck .
That isn't what he said.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lukethedork
...Not exactly true. First off there is oil in the reservoir. But it is not completely filled with oil like most people would think....
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Old 06-18-2016, 01:06 AM   #14
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this is the part that makes me laugh..

Quote:
"OP should learn how to drive his car first... "
why does this guy assume that I don't know how to drive my car...
Asking for shock recommendations HAS NOTHING to do with my ability to drive my car on a track or not.

Ill be the first one to openly admit it, I suck at autox, but I assure you that a track its a different story.
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Old 06-18-2016, 03:25 AM   #15
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For spring rates, what I mean is that if you need something other than what they come with, you can do that through RCE. That can be your decision or their recommendation after talking about what you are doing (although you do have to pay extra with the T2s so it's not a whole lot different than just buying another set of springs). You don't get that option or advice from KW or Ohlins.

IMO if you get beyond street tires you are going to need higher rates than what T2s, 2 way clubsports, or the ohlins come with.

And then as far as ride height goes, the range of adjustment you get with the kws is designed to work in the same range as the suspension geometry. So they will let you go like 1-1.5' lower without running out of bump travel, but not so low that you have other issues with geometry and things rubbing.
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Old 06-18-2016, 11:28 AM   #16
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Hi Jamal,

Quote:
IMO if you get beyond street tires you are going to need higher rates than what T2s, 2 way clubsports, or the ohlins come with.
Can you elaborate why the higher spring rates?
I am guessing you are saying stickier tires ? Are you referring to the suspension may be "too soft" and with the race tires provide too much grip?

By the way, does traction rolling exist in real cars ? (when I was a kid and raced RC that was a big deal when tuning suspension)

I am going to call RCE Monday if I have time.

Quote:
And then as far as ride height goes, the range of adjustment you get with the kws is designed to work in the same range as the suspension geometry. So they will let you go like 1-1.5' lower without running out of bump travel, but not so low that you have other issues with geometry and things rubbing.
You are correct, I did think of that. You aren't slamming your track car - at least I am not. To be quite honest I really like the stock ride height. I realize coilvers will lower it slightly. But I don't intend to slam the car. So yes I think you are right, sliding the perch to lower the car a little bit or corner weigh it should not affect travel much.

Thanks folks.
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Old 06-18-2016, 12:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Profoxcg View Post
Can you elaborate why the higher spring rates?
I am guessing you are saying stickier tires ? Are you referring to the suspension may be "too soft" and with the race tires provide too much grip?

By the way, does traction rolling exist in real cars ? (when I was a kid and raced RC that was a big deal when tuning suspension)
If you want to get technical and you can make adjustments to the chassis then you tune your vehicle from the ground up. So the tires are the first thing that you would make and tune. Since we can't make our own tires or adjust our chassis then we have to just tune the springs/shocks to the tires. So when you change tires you would change your springs/shocks to match them.
Realistically you don't do that though. Just pick a good spring rate and shock valving and use that for both your street and track tires. Maybe change the shock's clickers 1 or 2 for the tire change at most.

Traction rolling is definitely possible. Think of SUV's they can roll easily. A few other small cars have been known to roll over as well (Mercedes A Class?)
https://youtu.be/Um-XlKerWvA
Unless you are modifying your fenders on the Subaru then you likely won't get close to having the grip to traction roll though. But that doesn't mean you won't roll when you slide off the track into the sand trap or even onto soft grass.
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Old 06-18-2016, 04:10 PM   #18
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right...
Quote:
But that doesn't mean you won't roll when you slide off the track into the sand trap or even onto soft grass.
yikes.

Thanks for your response. I e-mailed KW and will call RCE Monday. It really seems KW is the way I want to go.
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Old 06-19-2016, 06:26 PM   #19
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If the springs are too soft you will cook the outsides of the tires and possibly bottom out the suspension too often. Also it'll seem like you have excessive body roll and the car is slow to respond.

The clubsports are 8k f/r (~450 lb/in), and the T2s are a bit stiffer at 500/500. I think RCE are probably the best option, as they will perform better than a KW V3 but cost less than the clubsports.

And then those ohlins seem to be 9k/7k f/r, which I think is too soft in the rear for this car.

Last edited by jamal; 06-19-2016 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 06-19-2016, 07:06 PM   #20
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let me give them a call tomorrow if I have time again.
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Old 06-19-2016, 08:05 PM   #21
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Wow this all went sideways...

I want to toss in a couple things:

relevant:

1) the kW are easily rebuild able and they have an office in California with a quick turn around. So my opinion is go with them.

not relevant:

Luke is correct. The reservoir contains oil, and the bladder contains nitro.
If you have ever bled a damper after a rebuild you would know this. If you have not bled it, I never want to drive your car.
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Old 06-19-2016, 08:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slide View Post
Wow this all went sideways...



I want to toss in a couple things:



relevant:



1) the kW are easily rebuild able and they have an office in California with a quick turn around. So my opinion is go with them.



not relevant:



Luke is correct. The reservoir contains oil, and the bladder contains nitro.

If you have ever bled a damper after a rebuild you would know this. If you have not bled it, I never want to drive your car.

You guys are wrong the reservoir does not contain any oil. Please call or email kW so u guys can be corrected
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Old 06-19-2016, 08:26 PM   #23
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What does the bladder push on then?
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Old 06-19-2016, 08:30 PM   #24
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Old 06-19-2016, 08:42 PM   #25
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Those are not even kW shocks lol good one there bud.. Once again call KW..
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