Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday November 17, 2017
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-06-2009, 09:48 PM   #1601
unclemat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114530
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2005 LGT 6MT wagon

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
SOA Blog: Why has the 2010 Legacy gone back to 60/40 split rear seats instead of the 40/20/40 split that the past few years have had? That's probably a deal-killer for me. With 40/20/40 you can seat 2 people in the back and carry skis, paddles, etc. With 60/40 you can't.
Why are you so hung up about 40/20/40 seats? Loads of cars survive without them..

j/k

Note, technically 07-09 Legacy sedan's seats were 60/40 with a pass thru, not 40/20/40, but would probably serve your purpose.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
unclemat is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 04-06-2009, 09:53 PM   #1602
phoenix96
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 14148
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Legacy GT Ltd
2011 Outback 3.6R Ltd

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post
Why are you so hung up about 40/20/40 seats? Loads of cars survive without them..

j/k

Note, technically 07-09 Legacy sedan's seats were 60/40 with a pass thru, not 40/20/40, but would probably serve your purpose.
Yep, that pass-through has come in handy on mine a few times.
phoenix96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 10:22 PM   #1603
Mike Wevrick
RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 24654
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: saraseager.com
Vehicle:
1957 Taggart Comet
atlasshruggedpart1.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post
Note, technically 07-09 Legacy sedan's seats were 60/40 with a pass thru, not 40/20/40, but would probably serve your purpose.
60/40 with a pass thru would be fine, but the just FYI the photos on cars101.com show 40/20/40 ie the entire center section folds down.
http://www.cars101.com/subaru/legacy...tml#dimensions
That's preferable because you can get more in eg 4 sets of skis instead of 2.
Mike Wevrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 10:45 PM   #1604
unclemat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114530
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2005 LGT 6MT wagon

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
60/40 with a pass thru would be fine, but the just FYI the photos on cars101.com show 40/20/40 ie the entire center section folds down.
http://www.cars101.com/subaru/legacy...tml#dimensions
That's preferable because you can get more in eg 4 sets of skis instead of 2.
Technically it's still a pass thru, because top portion of the seat's center (along with the middle headrest) stays in place when the "pass thru" is opened. Anyway indeed it exposes full height opening.

Nice design, shame they dropped it (if that's confirmed).
unclemat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 11:04 PM   #1605
Mike Wevrick
RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 24654
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: saraseager.com
Vehicle:
1957 Taggart Comet
atlasshruggedpart1.com

Default

Ah, I see what you mean. Oh well, I will wait for full specs/photos.
Mike Wevrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 11:45 PM   #1606
dphoenix
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 145007
Join Date: Apr 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
Lightning Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post
Well, assuming you put a decent shocks on them. USDM 2.5i and non-SpecB GT are atrociously under damped.



Bold claim. Depends to whom. I can see viscous LSD being a weak unit, but I hope you're not trying to tell VDC will match handling characteristics of the Torsen SpecB's unit.



Marginal change (GT had 15:1), but definitely a plus (particularly on 2.5i, which had 16.5:1). I can give you that

The last thing I am curious about - is the 6-speed unit derivative of the current Subaru 6-speed design (i.e. same case design) or is this something new and/or derived from the 5-speed design?
I would be surprised if the spec.B made up even 1% of the Legacy sales numbers, so I don't think that it's really a great example.
IMHO, if it's priced right, it's worth a few disappearing or toned down features, if it means getting way more in new ones without a huge price jump. Subaru has always provided amazing value for the $$, and I can't honestly imagine anybody being that upset about 2 stage heated seats vs 4 stage heated seats when it means the car gets more affordable or even cheaper. I'm eager to see the pricing reveal.. I mean look at the base Honda Accord LX, MSRP is $20,905 vs $21,095 for an 09 Legacy 2.5i Special edition which packs a better sound system, sunroof, power driver's seat, 17"s, security system, and, oh yeah, symmetrical all wheel drive paired with a boxer engine!!! To get a little closer to that, you have to spend $21,905 for the LX premium and you're still missing a sunroof and the harmon/kardon audio. You have to expect that Subaru is going to want to keep things competitive - look what they did with the Impreza and the Forester - so give em a little understanding on the features. (and that's not even taking into account the yen VS the dollar, higher manufacturing costs, etc..).
Now if the pricing comes back way higher than the old one than that's a different argument altogether but unless they've changed their direction it seems like with both Impreza and Forester they lowered it.

Last edited by dphoenix; 04-07-2009 at 12:00 AM.
dphoenix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 01:30 AM   #1607
keepclam
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120244
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Everett, WA
Vehicle:
2006 Legacy SE Sedan
2006 Pilot EX-L 4WD

Default

Not a deal-breaker, but I'll miss turn-signal mirrors. It's a feature I'd look to purchase from a JDM or EDM source if not available domestically. It'd be much more convenient if I could purchase from Subaru and pay my dealer to install. *hint hint*
keepclam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 01:46 AM   #1608
keepclam
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120244
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Everett, WA
Vehicle:
2006 Legacy SE Sedan
2006 Pilot EX-L 4WD

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HB_Dad View Post
Why are you so hung up on NOT having them when loads of drivers survive because other drivers are better able to see what their intentions are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOA Blog View Post
I have no data to support your claim.
Here's data to support some of it...

From an April 2005 study by Matthew P. Reed and Michael J. Flannagan of Univ. of Michigan:
"A plan-view eccentricity analysis showed that (a Mirror Mounted Turn Signal) is much closer to the viewing driver's forward-directed line of sight than rear-mounted turn signals when the viewing driver's vehicle is in or near the blind zone between the signaling driver's mirror and direct peripheral fields of view. (MMTS) can improve the geometric visibility of turn signals in the adjacent-vehicle scenario that is believed to precede many lane- change/merge crashes. Further research will be necessary to determine if improved geometric visibility is accompanied by improved detection of turn signals by viewing drivers, and whether improved detection of turn signals has important safety implications."

So it seems that there is data to support that drivers are better able to see what others' intentions are, but is not yet data to support that drivers survive because of it. One can only infer at this point.

Abstract can be viewed here:
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2005-01-0449
keepclam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 01:56 AM   #1609
HB_Dad
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 45190
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Huntington Beach/Ramona, CA
Vehicle:
2014 Impreza Sport L
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepclam View Post
Here's data to support some of it...

From an April 2005 study by Matthew P. Reed and Michael J. Flannagan of Univ. of Michigan:
"A plan-view eccentricity analysis showed that (a Mirror Mounted Turn Signal) is much closer to the viewing driver's forward-directed line of sight than rear-mounted turn signals when the viewing driver's vehicle is in or near the blind zone between the signaling driver's mirror and direct peripheral fields of view. (MMTS) can improve the geometric visibility of turn signals in the adjacent-vehicle scenario that is believed to precede many lane- change/merge crashes. Further research will be necessary to determine if improved geometric visibility is accompanied by improved detection of turn signals by viewing drivers, and whether improved detection of turn signals has important safety implications."

So it seems that there is data to support that drivers are better able to see what others' intentions are, but is not yet data to support that drivers survive because of it. One can only infer at this point.

Abstract can be viewed here:
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2005-01-0449
Keepclam,you rock sir!
HB_Dad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 02:13 AM   #1610
keepclam
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120244
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Everett, WA
Vehicle:
2006 Legacy SE Sedan
2006 Pilot EX-L 4WD

Default

Not that it'll make a difference and turn-signal mirrors will suddenly be back... but, thanks, HB_Dad!
keepclam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 02:24 AM   #1611
Verwilderd
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 185217
Join Date: Jul 2008
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Boston, MA
Vehicle:
2008 Legacy GT
Poop Brown Metallic

Default

Remember, that assuming the blinkers are in use. Most people here never signal. So while they're nice to have, if they aren't used then the saftey argument goes out the window. But that's just my $.02
Verwilderd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 04:02 AM   #1612
phoenix96
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 14148
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Legacy GT Ltd
2011 Outback 3.6R Ltd

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verwilderd View Post
Remember, that assuming the blinkers are in use. Most people here never signal. So while they're nice to have, if they aren't used then the saftey argument goes out the window. But that's just my $.02
I always use my turn signals. I want my car to have turn signal mirrors so that all the other drivers can better see me and my intentions. It is a safety issue.
phoenix96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 08:46 AM   #1613
SOA Blog
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 171797
Join Date: Feb 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HB_Dad View Post
Keepclam,you rock sir!
Nice - but that's not data to support HB's claim. The study says they are "believed" to be easier to see (and then only in the moment of blind spot, which depends on thickness of A Pillar) ... but not how many people "survive" or how many more accidents (if any) are caused by their lack.

"Further research will be necessary to determine if improved geometric visibility is accompanied by improved detection of turn signals by viewing drivers, and whether improved detection of turn signals has important safety implications"

so... not conclusive. Researchers in their recommendations are funny... anyone in research circles knows the first thing they ALWAYS recommend is more research. I guess we could install extending arms like school buses as they are also easier to see. Don't get me wrong, I like TSM too, esp. the way they look... but you know, some cars have them, some don't.

Last edited by SOA Blog; 04-07-2009 at 09:47 AM.
SOA Blog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 09:05 AM   #1614
Tea cups
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103136
Join Date: Dec 2005
Default

I can't remember ever not seeing someone's turn signal because the car didn't have turn signal mirrors. Nor do I ever remember thinking "wow, I can see that car's turn signal so much better" because they had turn signal mirrors. In fact, until this thread, I didn't even know the current Legacy had them and I always give close scruitny to any other Subaru on the road.

I guess if the worst complaint about the new car is turn signal mirrors, Subaru must be happy.
Tea cups is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 09:38 AM   #1615
rsholland
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5769
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Ellicott City, MD, USA
Vehicle:
'09 WRX Prem 5-dr
Dark Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
SOA Blog: Why has the 2010 Legacy gone back to 60/40 split rear seats instead of the 40/20/40 split that the past few years have had? That's probably a deal-killer for me. With 40/20/40 you can seat 2 people in the back and carry skis, paddles, etc. With 60/40 you can't.
The Tribeca has that 40/20/40 split feature.

Bob
rsholland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 10:19 AM   #1616
Mike Wevrick
RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 24654
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: saraseager.com
Vehicle:
1957 Taggart Comet
atlasshruggedpart1.com

Default

^^Sure, but the 'Beca is AT-only and doesn't have the handling of the LGT (although its quite good for what it is). I want something I can still enjoy driving.
Mike Wevrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 10:23 AM   #1617
rsholland
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5769
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Ellicott City, MD, USA
Vehicle:
'09 WRX Prem 5-dr
Dark Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
^^Sure, but the 'Beca is AT-only and doesn't have the handling of the LGT (although its quite good for what it is). I want something I can still enjoy driving.
Wonder if the new new 2010 Ouback will have that feature?

Bob
rsholland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 10:28 AM   #1618
unclemat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114530
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2005 LGT 6MT wagon

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix96 View Post
I always use my turn signals. I want my car to have turn signal mirrors so that all the other drivers can better see me and my intentions. It is a safety issue.
+1

I also always signal, even if the nearest car is mile away from me. I mean always, no exceptions. It's common sense and courtesy.

I was also very glad to find side turn signals on BP/BL and it was a major plus to me.
unclemat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 10:36 AM   #1619
Mike Wevrick
RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 24654
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: saraseager.com
Vehicle:
1957 Taggart Comet
atlasshruggedpart1.com

Default

^^same. It's just habit now to always signal; I don't even think about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsholland View Post
Wonder if the new new 2010 Ouback will have that feature?

Bob
Unless it also has the LGT drivetrain available and a suspension that doesn't make me seasick, still no sale.
Mike Wevrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 11:26 AM   #1620
Knotsure
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 41730
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Jersey
Vehicle:
1415 Legacy/Forester
D.Grey/White

Default

I once did this performance drive school thing a few years ago. Drove the instructor nuts signalling every turn through the course. But he did end up laughing 'with me'!

FWIW - everytime Subaru changes something, us 'loyalist' pounce on the changes we don't like, we whine, stomp our feet, say 'you've lost me as a customer', 'it's the ugliest car on the road', what are those designers thinking?? and then run out to get one - - because the cars are more than the turn signal mirrors, seats, seat heater's, etc.

I'm looking forward to a test drive - that's what tells me what I'll buy and I'm pretty sure this will be an easy choice for me considering what was added vs. changed/deleted.
Knotsure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 12:02 PM   #1621
Verwilderd
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 185217
Join Date: Jul 2008
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Boston, MA
Vehicle:
2008 Legacy GT
Poop Brown Metallic

Default

^^ I have to agree. I will reserve final judgement until I drive the car. I'm not about the "fluff" in the car, but rather the performance, handling and performance potential. I wanna buy a car that I will enjoy driving and be able to 'mod'. Looks aren't the most important to me, because let's face it, there are better looking are out there than the Legacy....even the current gen. But for me, I totally LOVE my car and have loved every Subaru I've been in so far, so I think I will enjoy this new one.
Verwilderd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 04:55 PM   #1622
keepclam
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 120244
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Everett, WA
Vehicle:
2006 Legacy SE Sedan
2006 Pilot EX-L 4WD

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOA Blog View Post
Nice - but that's not data to support HB's claim. The study says they are "believed" to be easier to see (and then only in the moment of blind spot, which depends on thickness of A Pillar) ... but not how many people "survive" or how many more accidents (if any) are caused by their lack.

"Further research will be necessary to determine if improved geometric visibility is accompanied by improved detection of turn signals by viewing drivers, and whether improved detection of turn signals has important safety implications"

so... not conclusive. Researchers in their recommendations are funny... anyone in research circles knows the first thing they ALWAYS recommend is more research. I guess we could install extending arms like school buses as they are also easier to see. Don't get me wrong, I like TSM too, esp. the way they look... but you know, some cars have them, some don't.
You're right, and I think I pointed that inconclusiveness out myself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by keepclam View Post
So it seems that there is data to support that drivers are better able to see what others' intentions are, but is not yet data to support that drivers survive because of it. One can only infer at this point.
All I'm sayin' is - like you - I like them, and they increase your chances of being seen (as the geometry in the study shows). I understand the cost-cutting, but I'll be sad to see them go and wish they could be an accessory I could purchase through Subaru.

How 'bout amber signals in the rear? New Legacy got 'em? I know they typically look worse (unless they're done w/clear lenses). In heavy traffic, if you can only see one taillight of a vehicle that uses red rear signals and doesn't have signal mirrors (say like a vehicle that's 2 cars ahead of you or a vehicle in a lane next to you that's partially obstructed from view by the car behind it), you can't tell immediately if that vehicle 2 cars up is braking or that vehicle in an adjacent lane is attempting to change lanes into you. Turn signal mirrors remove the doubt and so do amber rear signals. Legacy have amber rear signals?

My two cents on the topic. I think these things are accident avoidance features that should be on Subarus, but the lack of them won't deter me from buying one.
keepclam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 07:15 PM   #1623
whoosh
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 40989
Join Date: Jul 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Vehicle:
OT vag inspector

Default

dear Mr. Blog

do you have the gas mileage numbers for the new legacy?
whoosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 12:33 AM   #1624
punkrocksailor
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43376
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, OR
Default

Dear SOA Blog, I've since moved on to an Audi because you no longer have a real performance oriented model. My thinking was that if I was going to have something comfortable I would rather have it be more upscale. Does Subaru have any intentions of having a no (or very few) compromises model with performance it's only goal?? Many of us feel as if the current STI left us out in the cold when the wrx and STi are what brought Subaru out of the shadows here in America. Perhaps if the STi was a wolf in sheeps clothing instead of the opposite things like 0% financing and $6-8000 off of sticker would not have happened, perhaps the 2008 wrx wouldn't have happened either. Those are just my two cents but as someone in the performance industry it was hard to imagine buying an 08 STi over an Evo or even an older STi. As such, an S4 will have to do for now as my compromise. But as someone who appreciated what Subaru was (and I purchased three new ones and four used ones) I am a little sad that I have no interest in any of the current models (and after building a nice 2008 turbo model that I spent quite a lot on I could not be more surprised by what you did to the Forester.... shame on Subaru). These are just the ramblings of a disgruntled former customer but I know I'm not alone, perhaps listening to the people who helped Subaru move from the ranks of Suzuki and Mazda into a company that mattered would help it gain even more popularity.
I guess I'll stop there because I could keep going on about how sad many of us our but I'll leave it at that.

Cheers,
Joel
punkrocksailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 09:26 AM   #1625
Hondaslayer
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4562
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Auburn, WA
Vehicle:
1995 Legacy LSi
2005 Chrysler Town & ****

Default

Why not fender mounted signals? Those are much easier to see than mirror mounted, especially when coming up behind /alongside the vehicle.

I installed the fender mounted signals on my Forester and there is a noticeable difference in the visibility of the signal vs the mirror mounted lights on my old demo Forester.
Hondaslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GM goes for hip with shotgun blog NYCshopper Non-Subaru News & Rumors 5 01-31-2007 08:21 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2017, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.