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Old 06-20-2008, 12:49 AM   #1
parkes
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Default So What Exactly did i pay for? - 440cc JDM sidefeed injectors

These are the injectors that i was told were 440cc JDM sidefeed injectors that i was told would fit into N/A rails, they fit the rails except the passenger side one was too short, So i tryed my stock rails they fit, I try to start my car and Sounds like a piston hit the damm injector, i inspected it nothing, After that it was nothing but gas and a flooded engine, the car wouldnt even spark, I put my Stock injectors back in and now it starts up like a chuga chuga choo train, Its running on 3 cyliners obviously, i did the old spark plug test and it showed top left was not working (Getting plugs tommorow) Now it seems like my car is ****ed after trying to do a simple install of injectors, Whats the matter, I know i have either a bad plug or wire now because my stock injectors were fine before, My brother said something about timing and the injectors flooding the moter on the exhaust stroke, What is he talking about? Whats the matter with my car now, i put everything back the way it was before, i changed the oil because it was soaked with about a litre of gas, It starts like ****, Runs like ****, But dosent seem to be running as rich as those other injectors that spit out pure gas out of the gas, im not getting any CEL's (not a shure indication, i know, i know) But what did i do when i tryed to install the other injectors, Whats the ECU telling my CAR to do? How do i do a proper ECU relfash? What should i do, i need help guys, My car was running like a top before this, What happened? Did i do something wrong, i thought i did all the research, something simple turned into 50$ of wasted gas and a ****ed up car, for now, Any comments please are appreciated.

Here are the pics of the "JDM" injector compared with a N/A injector which is exactly like my turbo ones, What are these injectors? Have tey doomed my Car? They look like they flow less than the N/A ones, i was told they were out of a JDM EJTT, which i thought was an EJ20G/ EJ20K, i need to know. Thanks, (Jdm injectors are the ones with the long tip thats brown.)

N/A injector

Death JDM injector

The JDM one is supposed to flow 440cc, it looks like have the flow of the N/A (From a noobies perspective)

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Old 06-20-2008, 01:04 AM   #2
parkes
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I really need help with this.
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Old 06-20-2008, 09:53 AM   #3
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I'd try posting this in one of the technical subforums - 'Subaru Conversions' maybe - and put 'injectors' in the title somewhere
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Old 06-21-2008, 01:14 AM   #4
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Can anyone identify these injectors, comppresion test tommorow, duh duh duh
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Old 06-22-2008, 02:27 AM   #5
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You have JDM EJ20G 440 injectors. I don't think they fit your rails, but I could be wrong. They probably didn't seat and you dumped a ton of gas into your engine. I would change your oil pronto and put the NAs back in.

I hope you have some sort of engine management to deal with the larger injectors??

-Rob
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Old 06-22-2008, 09:21 AM   #6
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should've got some deatschwerks. =(
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Old 06-22-2008, 10:19 AM   #7
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Dude if you want to sell them I will buy them.
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Old 06-22-2008, 07:29 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob View Post
You have JDM EJ20G 440 injectors. I don't think they fit your rails, but I could be wrong. They probably didn't seat and you dumped a ton of gas into your engine. I would change your oil pronto and put the NAs back in.

I hope you have some sort of engine management to deal with the larger injectors??

-Rob
I changed my Oil right away, Put my stock injectors back, now its not the same anymore, It starts like a chuga chuga choo train because i must have damaged lower seal, causing the fuel to either evaporate or flow past the worn piston rings into the crankcase, SO well see, im going to get some new seals and avoid driving it.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:46 AM   #9
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After returning to Stock
Death Crank, I was told this was timing, Could you Guys help me out?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ82TmfVKcw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo7npTewnMg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LKUsiEGGvg
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:56 PM   #10
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sounds like your cyl is full of fuel on compression stroke, so both valves are closed...

try pulling your spark plugs and unpluging your coil. then turn it over... might want to turn it over by hand.

all of the fuel will come out and you will be good again...

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Old 06-24-2008, 07:22 PM   #11
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Those JDM injectors that you've shown look to be the 380cc ones from the earlier twin turbo's. AFAIK the JDM 440's have Yellow tops.

That is what they are referred to down here in New Zealand and Australia. I've had discussions on here before of the grey top ones being tested at 440cc's in the USA. Don't know if the difference is in the testing procedure?
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Old 06-24-2008, 09:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koom View Post
Those JDM injectors that you've shown look to be the 380cc ones from the earlier twin turbo's. AFAIK the JDM 440's have Yellow tops.

That is what they are referred to down here in New Zealand and Australia. I've had discussions on here before of the grey top ones being tested at 440cc's in the USA. Don't know if the difference is in the testing procedure?
Hi,
Can you find any flow results showing the grey tops as 380cc? I have seen that number time and time again, especially from UK/Aus/NJ, but yet to see a flow report to verify. The ones from my JDM 95WRX flowed [email protected] (there have been others with the same results). To get 380cc for the same injector, you would have to drop the pressure down to 2.1bar. It doesn't make sense to test an injector at that low of pressure. Plus if you think the fact that their were EJ20G variants that came from the factory with 275hp, 380cc injectors just doesn't add up. The conclusion that I have come to is that either there are two different grey top injectors, or the 380cc number is a pervasive internet myth. I lean toward the latter.

-Rob
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Old 06-24-2008, 11:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob View Post
Hi,
Can you find any flow results showing the grey tops as 380cc? I have seen that number time and time again, especially from UK/Aus/NJ, but yet to see a flow report to verify. The ones from my JDM 95WRX flowed [email protected] (there have been others with the same results). To get 380cc for the same injector, you would have to drop the pressure down to 2.1bar. It doesn't make sense to test an injector at that low of pressure. Plus if you think the fact that their were EJ20G variants that came from the factory with 275hp, 380cc injectors just doesn't add up. The conclusion that I have come to is that either there are two different grey top injectors, or the 380cc number is a pervasive internet myth. I lean toward the latter.

-Rob
I don't have my flow results anymore, but I have the yellow injectors (from a 98 GTB EJ20R) and my tuner tested these at 440cc when I last had my motor tuned. This was about 2 years ago. The 275bhp EJ20G variants that we have here, JDM, use the yellow 440's and these reach their maximum around 280hp at the wheels. From the V5/6 STI, the yellows are 550cc's. The EJ20G's with the grey tops get no where near 280hp at the wheels.

To be honest it confuses me why this difference always comes up. I will ask around to see if I can find a local with some flow results as there has to be some sort of reasonable explanation for this common discrepancy.
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:16 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koom View Post
I don't have my flow results anymore, but I have the yellow injectors (from a 98 GTB EJ20R) and my tuner tested these at 440cc when I last had my motor tuned. This was about 2 years ago. The 275bhp EJ20G variants that we have here, JDM, use the yellow 440's and these reach their maximum around 280hp at the wheels. From the V5/6 STI, the yellows are 550cc's. The EJ20G's with the grey tops get no where near 280hp at the wheels.

To be honest it confuses me why this difference always comes up. I will ask around to see if I can find a local with some flow results as there has to be some sort of reasonable explanation for this common discrepancy.
Strange, I have never heard of an ej20g (at least the WRX versions) with the yellow injectors. My 95 sedan was rated 260ps from the factory with the grey injectors. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find somebody around the board with a ver2 STi (275ps) to verify they are grey.

Another check is that I have the ECU code for a '93 RA and an older JDM Liberty. The injector scaling value is the same for those as well as my Z4 ECU; all set to 440cc.

I would be very interested to see a flow report if you can find one.

-Rob
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:55 AM   #15
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I've been asking around tonight to see if I could find someone with an answer for this issue. I still haven't found anyone with a printout of a flow test but I have made an interesting discovery. Everyone who has given me results for the flowrate of these injectors has quoted [email protected] for the greys and [email protected] for the yellows. This would account for the difference in flowrates if it is common practice to flowtest injectors at 3bar (or ~43psi) in the states.

If you calculate the predicted flowrates of these injectors using the formula;

P1/P2 x Flow1 = Flow2

and use the figures
P1 = 43 psi (~3 bar)
P2 = 36.25 psi (2.5 bar)
Flow1 = 380cc

then that gives Flow2 = [email protected] bar for the same injector.


So I'm wondering if this is a possible cause of the difference in information coming from different places on the globe? I might have to drop in on my local dyno shop to ask if they have any injector flow test reports available and what pressure they test to.

The JDM V2 STI definately had greys. The JDM V3 STi was the first with the yellows and the JDM V3 WRX still had greys. My apologies for any misinformation in my earlier post as I may have been getting confused as to when the EJ20G's lifespan ended.
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:12 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suberdave View Post
sounds like your cyl is full of fuel on compression stroke, so both valves are closed...

try pulling your spark plugs and unpluging your coil. then turn it over... might want to turn it over by hand.

all of the fuel will come out and you will be good again...

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+1

I would suggest doing it by hand though.

Nick
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:19 AM   #17
rob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koom View Post
I've been asking around tonight to see if I could find someone with an answer for this issue. I still haven't found anyone with a printout of a flow test but I have made an interesting discovery. Everyone who has given me results for the flowrate of these injectors has quoted [email protected] for the greys and [email protected] for the yellows. This would account for the difference in flowrates if it is common practice to flowtest injectors at 3bar (or ~43psi) in the states.

If you calculate the predicted flowrates of these injectors using the formula;

P1/P2 x Flow1 = Flow2

and use the figures
P1 = 43 psi (~3 bar)
P2 = 36.25 psi (2.5 bar)
Flow1 = 380cc

then that gives Flow2 = [email protected] bar for the same injector.


So I'm wondering if this is a possible cause of the difference in information coming from different places on the globe? I might have to drop in on my local dyno shop to ask if they have any injector flow test reports available and what pressure they test to.

The JDM V2 STI definately had greys. The JDM V3 STi was the first with the yellows and the JDM V3 WRX still had greys. My apologies for any misinformation in my earlier post as I may have been getting confused as to when the EJ20G's lifespan ended.
Nope. Sorry, you got the formula wrong.



Like I said, to get 380cc out of these injectors, you would have to test down to 2.1bar is really too low to be useful. Maybe somebody along the way made the same math mistake you did and that's where the rumor started...I don't know.

-Rob
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:30 AM   #18
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Koom:

I don't think that formula is valid. It looks like you were trying to find the unknown flow rate by using pressure ratios. I don't think that works in this case since you have mixing fluids. That makes a big mess of things with all of the temperature changes, cavitation, pressure waves, and other dynamics that require diff eq. You can't even interpolate for the second flow rate knowing only those three numbers. The treand is non-linear in that type of situation. It seems pretty silly to me that they are not labeled on the injector. I would think that there would be some kind of part number stamped into the injector that corresponds to a drawing somewhere that would tell us everything we want to know. Of course I could be wrong. Just my input.
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Old 06-27-2008, 12:55 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White out View Post
+1

I would suggest doing it by hand though.

Nick
Wow, thanks alot guys

I appreciate all the help

Ill try this tommorow
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:11 AM   #20
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So I did thy bidding, It was 100% better, it didnt hesitate upon startup and drives alot more smooth and wasent shuttering from Fuel starve, im shure my problems arent completly fixed as they never are but this has been a huge Help
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:06 AM   #21
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I'm affraid koom knows far far more than me on the subject, but i'll throw this out now. I've never heard of JDM Grey tops as "440cc" injectors. Only ever seen the yellow tops quoted at "440cc". But like i said, koom knows more on the subject than I, and even he has shown doubt in that.

"Yellow tops" in their OEM rails
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:57 AM   #22
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So I finally got around to doing something about getting to the bottom of this mystery that has had me confused for quite a while.
To figure it out, we got a set of JDM Yellow injectors (V3 STI) and a set of JDM Grey injectors (BC5 Legacy RS) and also a set of aftermarket 740cc injectors that I had sitting in the parts bin.

I wanted to test the flow rates of the factory setup, so I used one of the factory fuel rails with a factory regulator on the end. I think it was from a ~98 GTB Legacy, the rail had the orange sticker if anyone wants to know. I then got a fuel pump and a pressure gauge and hooked it all up so that I could run the pump up to pressure and then put in a push button to power the injectors.
So using a volumetric flask borrowed from the science department at the local uni and a stopwatch, we set up our test rig and did a whole lot of back to back runs.

The results shown are all @ 3 bar and with the injectors run for 10-15 secs in each run. We did multiple runs of each injector and averaged out the results to account for measurement errors.
The grey injectors flowed: 460cc
the yellows flowed: 515cc
and the "740's" flowed: 840cc

So at first I thought, damn! Then was still left wondering why the greys are known as 380's, the yellows known as 440's and also why my 740's were flowing an extra 100cc. Then after having a bit of a look around my pc, I found a small injector flow calculator from TF Electronics (http://www.tfelectronics.com.au/PageFiles/software.html) who are tied in with Ray Hall Turbocharging in Australia. Their small program lets you change parameters for injector flow like pressure and Injector Duty Cycle to see what differences are to be had.
So what I did was plugged in 380cc, 440cc and 740cc and changed the IDC from 80% to 100% and left the pressure at 43.5psi. (this is to calculate what an injector that is rated @ 3 bar and 80% IDC will show in a test where it is run at 100%, or plain old direct current).

380cc (@100% IDC) = 456cc ->greys
440cc (@100% IDC) = 528cc ->yellows
740cc (@100% IDC) = 888cc

So from what I can make of the situation is that you guys are referring to the injectors as to what they will flow if held open with 100% IDC and the people who are referring to them as 380's and 440's are referring to the factory ratings which are given with 80% IDC. I think it really is that simple.

Last edited by koom; 08-07-2008 at 05:34 PM. Reason: Written 440cc instead of 740cc
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:29 AM   #23
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OMG after years of arguing this exact point some one finally tests and validates it yay!

yes that is how injectors are tested here 100% at 3 bar
the 80% figure was the piece of info that i was missing

perhaps it is because there are a fair number of tuners who use 100% idc

i do however think you typoed on the 2nd to last paragraph w/ the 750cc
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Old 08-07-2008, 01:16 PM   #24
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Good work!

When i took my car apart after all of this, it looked like a bomb went off in one of the cylinders it was burnt to all hell including the valves, I did a swap anyways, i should of got some pics, maybe today!
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