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Old 07-10-2008, 11:10 PM   #1
crashtke
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Question E85 with water injection?

Anyone done any testing on E85 vehicles as to the benefits of water or water/meth injection? Any thoughts on this? Would it have similar benefits as a pure gasoline vehicle?
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:32 PM   #2
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why? you can run just as much timing right out of the pump! im running 27degrees and 26 psi all day long with a t67!!! E85 is 85% ethanol which is real similar to methanol
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:56 AM   #3
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Just curious what the effects would be with water injection. If there would be any positive results.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:33 AM   #4
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Essentially more octane out of the fuel tank, coupled with more octane from the water meth mix. So you get more octane combined overall than from 93 octane and meth. But if you have good access to E85, then go for it. Otherwise just use 93. I really don't think driving out of your way to get E85 is worth it. Also, if you are somewhere you can't get E85, then your kinda screwed. You can get "premium" gas anywhere.

The other problem is that E85 eats certain types of fuel lines and fuel system components. It all has to comply to E85. As far as I know subarus don't comply yet.

http://ezinearticles.com/?E85-Ethano...-Car&id=216452

DP

Last edited by DonkeyPunch; 07-11-2008 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRX WRX View Post
why? you can run just as much timing right out of the pump! im running 27degrees
I'm going to make a foam toy "baseball" bat with "TIMING IS NOT A GAUGE OF POWER" on it for clobbering people.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyPunch View Post
Essentially more octane out of the fuel tank, coupled with more octane from the water meth mix. So you get more octane combined overall than from 93 octane and meth. But if you have good access to E85, then go for it. Otherwise just use 93. I really don't think driving out of your way to get E85 is worth it. Also, if you are somewhere you can't get E85, then your kinda screwed. You can get "premium" gas anywhere.

The other problem is that E85 eats certain types of fuel lines and fuel system components. It all has to comply to E85. As far as I know subarus don't comply yet.

http://ezinearticles.com/?E85-Ethano...-Car&id=216452

DP
Lol, that article is about classic american muscle cars. hotrod on here has been running his WRX on it for like 4 or 5 years now with no issues. As for the E85 not being everywhere, you are correct, however, that is where having an AP is nice...real time map for E85, real time map for 93. Switching takes all of 15 seconds. I happen to be fortunate in that I have very good access to E85. There are 2 stations within 15 miles of my house and one is right on the way home from work...the other is a 5 mile drive out of my way on the way home. So for me it is pretty easy.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:14 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
Lol, that article is about classic american muscle cars. hotrod on here has been running his WRX on it for like 4 or 5 years now with no issues. As for the E85 not being everywhere, you are correct, however, that is where having an AP is nice...real time map for E85, real time map for 93. Switching takes all of 15 seconds. I happen to be fortunate in that I have very good access to E85. There are 2 stations within 15 miles of my house and one is right on the way home from work...the other is a 5 mile drive out of my way on the way home. So for me it is pretty easy.
It maybe about classic muscle cars, but the fact remains that the WRX is not E85 compliant by build. I didn't cite it as to be current with the time, just an example of why the stuff isn't compliant with rubber hoses and seals in your fuel system. I just don't see an advantage to a few octane points in the grand scheme of things, when you are already at almost 115-120 octane depending on mix ratio. Eventually you adavance timing and raise boost and tweak AFR's to the point you aren't really making greater power anymore on the set-up you have. Someone will probably disagree with this post, but oh well. I just don't see a huge advantage, unless it is easily accessible, and costs less or the same as 93 oct.

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Old 07-11-2008, 06:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblaine View Post
I'm going to make a foam toy "baseball" bat with "TIMING IS NOT A GAUGE OF POWER" on it for clobbering people.
I second that.
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:15 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by DonkeyPunch View Post
It maybe about classic muscle cars, but the fact remains that the WRX is not E85 compliant by build. I didn't cite it as to be current with the time, just an example of why the stuff isn't compliant with rubber hoses and seals in your fuel system. I just don't see an advantage to a few octane points in the grand scheme of things, when you are already at almost 115-120 octane depending on mix ratio. Eventually you adavance timing and raise boost and tweak AFR's to the point you aren't really making greater power anymore on the set-up you have. Someone will probably disagree with this post, but oh well. I just don't see a huge advantage, unless it is easily accessible, and costs less or the same as 93 oct.

DP
$1 less a gallon than 93 actually And it burns cleaner. And it is 105 octane. And it has a larger exhaust by-product than gasoline (read spools the turbo better). And it burns about 200 F cooler than 93. And there have been no negative impacts to the WRX fuel system from any that are using it currently. But, not to clog this thread with E85 facts, I was more interested if anyone had tried it with water injection (not water meth necessarily although the chemical cooling of meth could be cool for the intake charge).
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:29 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
$1 less a gallon than 93 actually And it burns cleaner. And it is 105 octane. And it has a larger exhaust by-product than gasoline (read spools the turbo better). And it burns about 200 F cooler than 93. And there have been no negative impacts to the WRX fuel system from any that are using it currently. But, not to clog this thread with E85 facts, I was more interested if anyone had tried it with water injection (not water meth necessarily although the chemical cooling of meth could be cool for the intake charge).
I have no personal experience with it, and wasn't stating that it wouldn't work with a WRX. Just that the WRX supposedly isn't e85 compliant. The facts you mentioned are good though. 105 octane I guess makes it worth it if you can get the stuff. Not very available in New England.

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Old 07-12-2008, 02:29 AM   #11
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No one I know of has done any serious testing with WI on E85 fuel but I intend to play with it in the future. Since it is very hard to push E85 hard enough to get it to knock, the primary advantage of WI is moot for most of us. At proper max power fuel air mixtures E85 will allow boost levels up in the 30-35 psi range, so it is not really knock limited for most of us.

The challenge for E85 is to get good fuel mileage on a gallon for gallon basis. To do that you might find WI is useful. Running lean mixtures with high ignition advance numbers to ensure complete burn in the cylinder creates high combustion temperatures in an engine on any fuel. High combustion temps increase NOx production. WI might be useful to hold down NOx while running fuel economy tunes, so I think it has a place (or is at least worth a look). For the newer cars that have the long open loop delay on acceleration WI could also provide some protection during that lean mixture period by setting the WI up on a TPS control.

WI can be used to accomplish several different goals, you just have to understand what problem you are trying to solve.

In the case of brutal power maniacs yes WI could probably push E85 up into the 40+ psi boost range without knock. But at those power levels you better have everything else sorted out perfectly before you go there.

Larry
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:03 AM   #12
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I was actually thinking more for the former than the latter larry. I was wondering if you could, for economy sake, lean out the standard cruise rpms a little while running E85, thus increasing economy. I have not had a single knock since switching to E30. I could only imagine what might be possible with E85. I am on a stock turbo right now, so at this point I can't see pushing the boost over about 20-21 psi. But If I could achieve some economy with the E85 it would make it that much more attractive as a daily driving fuel. I have not noticed a large difference at this point in my mpg with E30, but I am anticipating it getting worse as I make the switch over to 100% E85.
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Old 07-23-2008, 01:27 PM   #13
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I was also looking into this. I want to convert to 100% E-85, I also want to run a Dom 3.0 (maybe 20G if not enough chash) with a large TMIC. So to keep temps down, from what I have been reading, water/meth injection is used.

I wouldn't need the octane benefits of the meth if I was running %100 E-85 right? Just the charge cooling benefits of 100% water?
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Old 07-23-2008, 02:45 PM   #14
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E85 acts like a 112 octane gasoline so as you say fuel octane is really not an issue unless you are running stupid boost levels. I know of folks running in the low 30 psi range on E85 with no knock issues.

Larry
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Old 07-23-2008, 06:35 PM   #15
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It also burns cooler itself...about 200 degrees f so, the water cooling may or may not be needed. Meth injection like Larry said is a lot of times to raise octane and to cool the charge. Both of these are done already with E85. Not sure if there would be any additional benefit to water injection or not. Btw, I am now at 100% E85 and loving it. Just be prepared to get some decent sized injectors, a big fuel pump and re-map your wastegate duty cycles!
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:01 PM   #16
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Sorry to bring this thread up from the dead, but....

E85 allows you to run higher boost (often into the less efficient parts of the compressor map), which will typically result in hotter charge temps. I agree that the octane increase available through running meth is a moot point, but it could be useful to run meth/water if you want to cool that hot charge down a bit, especially if you are maxing out your injectors, which is quite easy to do when running E85. I am not near maxing out mine yet, but I am still running 50/50 to help cool the charge down a bit, even though I am still in my efficiency range on my compressor map.

Now I just have to sort out the MBT issue while running E85. It seems like it would be easy to just keep adding timing past MBT without ever seeing knock. I don't have access to a dyno within any sane driving distance either.....
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Old 10-14-2008, 05:16 PM   #17
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Can anyone point me to study/experiment which has evaluated use of water injection with E85 fuel? Did it actually raise effective octane number?

It seems to me that water which evaporates (i.e. "charge cooling"?) before intake valves close is counter-productive if there is no significant knock resistance added. Water vapor takes up much more space than same mass of water droplets, which means less space for air in combustion chamber. If engine isn't knocking, who cares about intake charge temperature?

Last edited by Cocoa Beach Bum; 10-14-2008 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 10-14-2008, 07:46 PM   #18
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No added octane I would not think...just cooling effects in the cylinder allowing you to possibly run more timing. I still have not seen any knock on my car even after advancing the timing past what I believe to be MBT. So I am not sure it would do a whole lot at this point...but I have not tried it either. Someone with some results might be able to shed some light on this subject...till then, my vote is out.
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:49 PM   #19
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E85 will with proper mixtures allow up to 35-38 psi boost so effective octane is not really an issue with normal max power rich mixtures. That said, water injection would allow use of very lean mixtures that would other wise be knock prone or burn so hot as to risk engine damage or fail emissions testing due to NOx emissions.

There are tons of tests that have been done with water injection that clearly show it can produce substantial power increases especially on very very lean mixtures. Water injection is not a one dimensional improvement, it changes not only effective octane but also engine torque, charge cooling (which indirectly effects both effective octane and engine power through increased volumetric effeciency). It also effect the basic combustion process chemistry, and the thermodynamics of compression, so it has 4-5 different effects on the engine all of which tend to improve power production potential and extend lean run mixtures and reduce fuel consumption by allowing use of leaner mixtures than would otherwise be possible.

It has been used and researched for 70 odd years so if you look around you can find lots of info on it. The best being tests done in the late 1940's for the military by NACA to assist the war effort and extend max power available in high performance supercharged piston engine aircraft. There will be little or no information on use with E85 specifically since the fuel did not even exist until recent years and has not been widely available until just the last couple years in most areas of the country.

There is no reason to believe based on that 70 history of use that it would not be useful and that alone is good reason for those who are interested to investigate it.

Larry
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Old 10-15-2008, 05:43 PM   #20
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So I wonder if you could SOMEHOW (without a standalone EMS) run leaner cruising AFRs by using WI on tip in to prevent knock..........
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