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Old 07-13-2008, 08:51 PM   #1
CUNNINGHAM
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Default Ebay TMIC test. It makes good power!

Well I have a 05 Forester XT. I decided to start testing some components that are well of a lesser dollar amount ( Cheap! )to see how well they work or how bad they perform. I am also looking to test them for fitment and reliability. I am hope to do this for a lot more products in the near future.

I also started with a goal of building a solid daily driver without $pending a fortune and to keep it, well a sleeper.

Well here is the test mule stats:
VF34 monster port @ 18.43psi
Ported Exhaust manifold
Ported STI up pipe
Cusco 3" bell mouth to 2.5"
STI mid pipe and muffler
Perrin fuel rails
Perrin intake elbow
Perrin Turbo inlet pipe
Greddy air intake: did not make power! will be testing drop in filters next.
170 degree T-Stat and water wetter
Ported intake manifold T-Body and JDM TGV's
Walbro 255
Grounding kit
Tune is stock timing and a 11.2 AFR solid


The base line with all above mods was 293WHP and 309WTQ SAE Correction
Same setup but with Ebay TMIC 317WHP and 334WTQ SAE Corrected

That is a 24Hp and 25Ftlbs from bolting up a $110.00 used intercooler. That $4.48 per 1hp and 1tq not a bad deal.

The fitment was great even on my Fozzy which is a bit tighter than a WRX. Quaility was amazing! When I open the box I was impressed with the quaility of welds and materials I expected something of a lot lesser quaility. The car holds above 300hp all the way from 4500 Rpm to 6600Rpm. The stock intercooler was 260hp from 4500Rpm and climbed to max of 292hp by 5800 where it fell off to 4600rpm then fell off.

So far I have spent $2275.00 on this project and went from 190Whp to 317Whp a 127WHp gain. $17.90 per hp

I will attempt to post dynographs this week some time as I can't from this computer, some type of erro keeps popping up.
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:20 PM   #2
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so how long before its heat soaked and you loose power? then how long does it take to cool down?
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:41 PM   #3
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Also I'm wondering how much did you boost do you lose through out the core?

but still that's pretty good power gains!
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:08 PM   #4
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I have not had the oportunity to run any temp test but with my hand after 6 dyno runs it was still fairly cool to the touch.

On the street I drove the car hard for about 45mins then pulled over to find it was slightly higher than atmospheric air temp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by autvincereautmori View Post
so how long before its heat soaked and you loose power? then how long does it take to cool down?
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:09 PM   #5
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I am losing .57psi through the core.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcebowl View Post
Also I'm wondering how much did you boost do you lose through out the core?

but still that's pretty good power gains!
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:32 PM   #6
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Im doing the same on my 02WRX, cheap re-build.

Some of your parts choices are a little strange though when considering a cheap build, UNLESS you got them used.

Like porting the stock exhaust manifold and ported up pipe. How much did you pay for that? Or did you DYI? I got one piece ebay headers w/ up pipe for ~$200.

Then there's the cusco downpipe. Cusco is one of the most expensive isnt it, plus it tapers? I got a full ebay TBE for $250, full 3" catless. I know you are trying to be sleeper, but there is power to be had with a larger exhaust and less restrictive muffler.

The ported vf34, how much was that? I got a used SBR GT-12 turbo for $500, which flows a significant amount more than a vf turbo.

How did you determine that the Greddy Intake didnt make any more power? Did you run it on the same tune as the stock intake? Did you rescale the MAF at all? Exact same AFR? Did you try and tune it to make more power?

Are you using Romraider and Airboys spreadsheet? If so can you post your dynoplots from that?

IMO, the best bang for the buck mod is gonna be a used turbo.....you are already allowing it to breathe better with the intake piping and ported exhaust, now you need to shove more air in there.

What other parts are you planning on testing?
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:44 PM   #7
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Nice thread. Any chance of GM boost solenoid in here? Show before and after dyno graphs for boost response.
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Old 07-13-2008, 11:01 PM   #8
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^^^ I did before and afters with my Perrin EBCS on my 02WRX with 16g and 06STi with FP Green and it didnt help the response at all, just less boost fluctuations.
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Old 07-13-2008, 11:06 PM   #9
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^^^^,

Phatron thinks for the info. you always got something informative to say. Keep up the good work
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Old 07-14-2008, 12:14 AM   #10
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thats debateable....

I am always trying to be helpful or asking questions trying to learn but it always doesnt come across that way. And I always like threads like this from end users instead of from shops or tuners because shops and tuners CAN be biased because they are trying to sell products. Most shops/tuners say the ebay parts are crap.

Tons of people say the stock bypass valves are crap above 20psi.....i have run 23+ on my stock WRX BPV and 26psi flat with my stock BPV on my STi.

Anyway, its really hard to analyze parts across different dynos, different weather, different altitudes, different cars, different setups, etc.....but its fun to try
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Old 07-14-2008, 12:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Are you using Romraider and Airboys spreadsheet? If so can you post your dynoplots from that?
That's a tough tool for comparisons. The wild swings in power from air temp and altitude are poorly compensated for, at least in my experience. DataLogLab seems to be better.
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Old 07-14-2008, 12:42 AM   #12
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I'm very skeptical and cautious dealing with shops when it comes to things like this. They are looking out for their own interest ie making money.


The question about it heat soaking is loaded also. You place any piece of metal above another piece of metal thats 700-1600F and yes it well get hot, heat rises. Just make sure you at least have a heat shield.
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:48 AM   #13
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/\
yes and no, Yes any piece of metal above another that is extreme hot will get hot as well.

However, how well an intercooler is designed can change how much it is effected by the heat. If an intercooler has TOO many fins and does not let enough air pass than it doesn't cool down properly. However if it too few fins then it doesn't cool enough as well.

I don't know if I said that right.. my tired but I think you can get what i'm trying to say
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Old 07-14-2008, 02:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
^^^ I did before and afters with my Perrin EBCS on my 02WRX with 16g and 06STi with FP Green and it didnt help the response at all, just less boost fluctuations.


My butt dyno begs to differ. When I got pro-tuned at Stage2, I had the OEM BCS. Not long after I went with the GM, and when tuned for (took about 3 minutes ) there was a definite noticeable torque improvement and it held boost better across the board. Perhaps mine was haggard, I don't know, but it's the best mod for the money that I've done so far, except for MAYBE heatwrapping the headers and uppipe.
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:43 AM   #15
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Cunnungham...very nice power your making there...now put it on a track and see how it does.
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Old 07-14-2008, 09:37 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiosavvy View Post
My butt dyno begs to differ. When I got pro-tuned at Stage2, I had the OEM BCS. Not long after I went with the GM, and when tuned for (took about 3 minutes ) there was a definite noticeable torque improvement and it held boost better across the board. Perhaps mine was haggard, I don't know, but it's the best mod for the money that I've done so far, except for MAYBE heatwrapping the headers and uppipe.
"torque improvement" is just more boost, doesnt necessarily mean your stock BCS couldnt do it, just that you werent tuned for it. heres my td04 (20.6 psi) and 16g (23.36 psi).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
heres my 02wrx td04 and 02wrx 16g.

2.2L ESX/TRP Motor
Ebay TBE
Ebay 1 Piece Header/Up Pipe
Ebay TMIC
91 Oct
Stock BCS

TD04
Code:
RPM	MRP	IGN	MAF	EGT	LOAD
2403	0.73	23	51.46	1004	1.21
2494	2.61	21.5	59.78	1004	1.38
2540	4.5	17.5	70.84	1004	1.58
2604	6.82	15.5	86.16	1004	1.86
2714	9.58	14	106.26	1013	2.24
2858	14.51	12	133.57	1013	2.61
2993	19.01	11	136.2	1022	2.65
3126	20.6	11	139.4	1022	2.57
3270	19.73	11	149.41	1040	2.6
3437	19.3	10.5	158.69	1058	2.64
3614	19.44	10.5	166.21	1067	2.65
3776	19.59	11.5	168.59	1094	2.58
3914	19.3	12	172.03	1121	2.54
4089	18.86	13	177.97	1130	2.53
4242	18.43	14	185.01	1157	2.53
4358	18.14	14.5	187.62	1166	2.49
4564	17.85	15	189.49	1193	2.44
4678	17.27	15.5	190.99	1211	2.39
4806	16.69	16.5	194.35	1238	2.36
4928	16.25	17	195.85	1256	2.31
5078	15.53	17.5	198.09	1274	2.28
5234	14.8	18	197.34	1292	2.23
5338	14.36	18.5	198.09	1310	2.19
5466	13.93	19	198.83	1319	2.14
5572	13.64	20	200.33	1346	2.11
5660	13.2	20	199.58	1355	2.06
5814	12.77	21	198.83	1364	2.04
5846	12.62	21	198.83	1382	2
5957	12.33	22	200.33	1400	1.97
6034	12.04	22.5	199.58	1409	1.93
6198	11.9	24.5	200.33	1409	1.91
6229	11.9	27	200.33	1427	1.89
6329	11.75	28.5	198.46	1445	1.86
6465	11.75	29.5	198.83	1445	1.84
6482	11.75	29.5	199.96	1445	1.82
6562	11.75	30.5	200.33	1454	1.8
6643	11.9	30.5	199.96	1463	1.78
6714	12.04	31.5	199.58	1472	1.76
6756	12.04	31.5	199.96	1481	1.73
6830	12.04	32	199.96	1481	1.72
6912	12.33	33	199.96	1481	0.97
6919	-1.45	33	15.71	1481	0.16
16G
Code:
RPM	IGN	MRP	AFR	LOAD	MAF
2338	18.5	17.7	11.02	0.88	39.73
2360	29.5	-1.31	14.24	1.06	42.86
2412	29.5	0.87	13.21	1.12	45.25
2514	28.5	1.6	12.86	1.19	49.77
2568	27	2.76	12.52	1.25	52.26
2668	26	3.63	12.75	1.34	60.97
2736	25.5	4.5	12.98	1.45	67.7
2852	23.5	5.66	12.98	1.61	77.95
2928	20	7.11	12.52	1.82	90.71
3035	14.5	9.14	11.94	2.1	109.68
3194	11	12.04	11.48	2.52	134.3
3321	9.5	17.41	11.02	2.93	165.32
3501	8	21.76	11.02	2.97	175.55
3726	8	23.36	11.02	2.92	180.75
3848	8.5	23.36	11.02	2.87	185.43
4041	9	23.36	11.02	2.79	187.66
4235	9.5	22.93	11.02	2.72	190.99
4391	9.5	22.64	11.02	2.67	195.44
4540	10	22.2	11.02	2.63	200.66
4682	10.5	21.76	11.02	2.61	204.21
4879	10.5	21.33	11.02	2.58	208.18
4977	11	21.18	11.02	2.55	212.94
5222	11.5	20.75	11.02	2.53	216.51
5323	11.5	20.02	11.02	2.51	220.96
5396	12	19.44	11.02	2.49	224.78
5531	12.5	18.86	11.02	2.47	227.74
5720	13	18.57	11.02	2.43	231.97
5782	13.5	18.43	11.02	2.39	231.12
5981	14	18.28	11.02	2.35	232.82
6029	14	17.99	11.02	2.32	233.67
6137	14.5	17.85	11.02	2.29	234.94
6292	17.5	17.56	11.02	2.26	235.78
6432	17.5	17.56	11.02	2.21	236.21
6438	18	17.56	11.02	2.19	237.9
6579	17	17.56	11.02	2.16	237.05
6631	17.5	17.7	11.02	2.14	237.9
6769	17.5	17.56	11.02	2.11	238.33
6880	18	17.56	11.02	2.09	237.05
6887	18.5	17.56	11.02	2.04	235.36
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Old 07-14-2008, 09:52 AM   #17
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Some of the parts I had sitting around. I did all the work my self which keept cost down.
I ported the stock manifold myself. I used the stocker because of the fact it is cast iron and it great at maintaining heat which help the spool of the turbo, there is some debate if aftermarket headers work at all.

I bought a used cusco down pipe for 150.00! The idea was to start with a project most people could afford to build, maintain reliability and keep it fairly quiet. I chose to get rid of the cats and keep a Stock STI exhaust fo the time being. Next week I am testing a Megan 3" TBE which was bought new for $600.00.

The ported VF34 was done by me. Remember this a Forester that my wife and Kid use. I am not looking to make 400Whp I have a car that does that already! I started this project as a fun driver that appeared stock and had a ,little noise. I chose the 34 for a number of reasons the main one it was free! I think it was a great choice. I spool at 2650Rpm and make power to redline and lately I keep making more with it and haven't tuned the timing table yet.

I bolted on the intake and ran it and lost power I also used it on a 02 WRX and had similar results. AFR's didn't change on the WRX or the Forester. Rescaling the MAF is typicly used to correct for larger or smaller intake pipes or when pegging the sensor. I think the Stock air box will be the way to go. I think the are good to 400hp

I had the GM boost solenoid but it became a issue with Check engine lights at high boost. I put the stocker back in and all is well. Some times oem is the way to go.

I will be doing the 3" Megan Exhaust next week and different air filters with and witout tuning on all parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Im doing the same on my 02WRX, cheap re-build.

Some of your parts choices are a little strange though when considering a cheap build, UNLESS you got them used.

Like porting the stock exhaust manifold and ported up pipe. How much did you pay for that? Or did you DYI? I got one piece ebay headers w/ up pipe for ~$200.

Then there's the cusco downpipe. Cusco is one of the most expensive isnt it, plus it tapers? I got a full ebay TBE for $250, full 3" catless. I know you are trying to be sleeper, but there is power to be had with a larger exhaust and less restrictive muffler.

The ported vf34, how much was that? I got a used SBR GT-12 turbo for $500, which flows a significant amount more than a vf turbo.

How did you determine that the Greddy Intake didnt make any more power? Did you run it on the same tune as the stock intake? Did you rescale the MAF at all? Exact same AFR? Did you try and tune it to make more power?

Are you using Romraider and Airboys spreadsheet? If so can you post your dynoplots from that?

IMO, the best bang for the buck mod is gonna be a used turbo.....you are already allowing it to breathe better with the intake piping and ported exhaust, now you need to shove more air in there.

What other parts are you planning on testing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexican View Post
Nice thread. Any chance of GM boost solenoid in here? Show before and after dyno graphs for boost response.
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Old 07-14-2008, 11:01 AM   #18
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Nice write up. Please keep us informed as you go.
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Old 07-14-2008, 11:17 AM   #19
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there was a header comparo done by some members, not really any debate on the power....stock was the lowest, then ported stock, then un equal, then equal lengths were the highest.
I know the plots are gone from the thread, but maybe you can pm rainmaker for them.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hlight=comparo


The check engine lights from your GM boost solenoid were probably just the "Boost Limit (CEL)" which is easily changeable and you are above the stock value at 18.43 psi.
If you wanna keep the vf turbo you can always have the 20g wheel put in it, blouch does it for $350
http://www.blouchturbo.com/turbos/IH...essor_Upgrade/

I have the APS 65mm (which is stock diameter) on my WRX and it took a lot of MAF scaling changes to hit Target AFRs.

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Old 07-14-2008, 11:24 AM   #20
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Here are my results after installing the APS 65mm unit WITHOUT tuning....notice how much the timing decreased (loss of power) since the load went up.




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Old 07-14-2008, 11:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
"torque improvement" is just more boost, doesnt necessarily mean your stock BCS couldnt do it, just that you werent tuned for it. heres my td04 (20.6 psi) and 16g (23.36 psi).
[quote=smurfwrx;22971253]No, I don't think that's what he's saying at all. I think he's just saying PPG's are just stronger and for his niche of driving (twisties) there's too much changing gears for his liking.

It wasn't that I made more boost, it was the quicker onset of said boost. I don't quite understand what you mean when you say I wasn't tuned for it, referring to the stock BCS. I had a very good professional Stage2 tune with the stock BCS. When I got the GM BCS, I installed it and had him re-tune (really just setting the tolerances I'm pretty sure) and the low-end improvement was unmistakable. While I didn't feel as much of a difference up top, the boost gauge told me that it was holding better, and we were able to get just a smidge more boost out of it. By that time we were somewhere over 20PSI on the stock turbo, so it was running out of breath very quickly, but the difference down low was MORE than worth it.
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Old 07-14-2008, 12:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiosavvy View Post
It wasn't that I made more boost,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiosavvy View Post
and we were able to get just a smidge more boost out of it.
just kidding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiosavvy View Post
it was the quicker onset of said boost. I don't quite understand what you mean when you say I wasn't tuned for it, referring to the stock BCS. I had a very good professional Stage2 tune with the stock BCS. When I got the GM BCS, I installed it and had him re-tune (really just setting the tolerances I'm pretty sure) and the low-end improvement was unmistakable.
what i meant was that if only your WOT load cells for target boost and WGDC were tuned on the stock BCS and then when he did the GM he upped everything the car could feel tons faster.
But installing a GM BCS and running it at the same peak boost and claiming you can feel a 100-200rpm spool difference is a little silly IMO. Or claiming that the car is making more power at the same boost by just changing the BCS just cant be true....

Got any logs, dyno sheets, or boost curves before and after? Or is it all butt dyno feelings?
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post


what i meant was that if only your WOT load cells for target boost and WGDC were tuned on the stock BCS and then when he did the GM he upped everything the car could feel tons faster.
But installing a GM BCS and running it at the same peak boost and claiming you can feel a 100-200rpm spool difference is a little silly IMO. Or claiming that the car is making more power at the same boost by just changing the BCS just cant be true....

Got any logs, dyno sheets, or boost curves before and after? Or is it all butt dyno feelings?

First of all, what I meant about a smidge more boost was not a higher PSI, but it reached peak faster and seemed to hold it just a little better up high, as in more area under the curve. I don't know that there was an exact number for how much quicker it spooled, but I'm not crazy, there WAS better low end, without question. Unfortunately I didn't have the software to pull logs or anything at the time, it was only on the butt dyno. I could see on the boost gauge that I was making boost a little sooner and even around say 4k, where it builds full boost without a problem, it built boost faster, the needle just flicked over, rather than rolling over. I don't know how to explain it, I'm not the most technical with stuff like this , but there was a very obvious improvement from about 2300-3500. Before the GM BCS, I was building full boost around 2600, after the BCS I was building full boost at 2400.

The re-tune was ONLY to accomodate the new BCS, it was not an entire tune all over again, so the differences I felt were ONLY from the BCS itself, nothing more.

You may think I'm crazy, and perhaps I am , but I will always think of it as probably the best mod for the money on my car right now, at roughly $40shipped (I did the labor, the touch-up tune cost me nothing).
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:27 PM   #24
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Before the GM BCS, I was building full boost around 2600, after the BCS I was building full boost at 2400.
I just really doubt you can feel that difference man.....it happens in like 0.001 seconds. I have bigger differences in that due to the temperature swings where i live from the morning to noon to night time and i cant feel them at all, but they show in the logs. I guess your butt dyno has better tolerances than mine

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The re-tune was ONLY to accomodate the new BCS, it was not an entire tune all over again, so the differences I felt were ONLY from the BCS itself, nothing more.
I understand that and that was my point.

Retuning for the new BCS your tuner had to modify your whole WGDC map because the GMBCS works differently than the stock unit.
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:49 PM   #25
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I just really doubt you can feel that difference man.....it happens in like 0.001 seconds.
The difference was very very noticeable. Not just a little. As I said, maybe there was something wrong with the stock one , but the difference was quite obvious.

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I have bigger differences in that due to the temperature swings where i live from the morning to noon to night time and i cant feel them at all, but they show in the logs. I guess your butt dyno has better tolerances than mine

I agree, that's why I hate summertime. The car is very different in the morning than at night. Even air quality makes a difference on the buttdyno. I'm very perceptive to changes like that. That's why I trust my butt dyno more than anything.
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