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Old 08-25-2008, 05:43 PM   #1
100_Percent_Juice
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Default Vapor/EVAP System Questions.

Back story... I was having trouble filling my gas tank without the pump clicking off 20 times before my tank was full. I found that my vapor canister had been damaged or hit on a rock or other hard object causing the charcoal inside to become loose. The charcoal clogged the hoses attached to the canister causing the gas fill problem. I dumped out all the loose charcoal pellets, cleared the hoses and reinstalled the canister. The problem went away. Its been quite some time since I did that and I totally forgot to replace the canister like I had originally intended. The problem has just now come back. I again removed the canister and dumped out the loose pellets. There have never been any CEL codes thrown from this happening.

Questions.
1. Is there any way that the charcoal pellets could have made it to the gas tank?
2. Could these blocked vapor canister hoses also cause other problems such as stuttering/jerking durring acceleration?

I know this is a system that not too many people are experts on. If you have any knowledge of the EVAP system please give me your input.

Thanks
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Old 08-27-2008, 10:25 AM   #2
100_Percent_Juice
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bump.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:37 AM   #3
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bump...curious as well
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:40 AM   #4
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also curious because the plastic wire on my has been cracked for quite some time now and through a CEL. i got it checked out at subaru and the guy said it wont harm my car and its 400 for a new one so i was like whatever and left it. i heard it was only for emmisions purposed so thats weird its messing with your gas tank
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Old 09-10-2008, 04:29 PM   #5
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the research i've gather in the last couple days was that the evap system basically takes the fuel vapor from the gas tank and recycles it with the air going into the intake manifold. the richened air adds about 1 extra horse power but is more atmosphere friendly. the evap system is an emission thing. i just got a p0442 code (evap small leak)
and am trying to figure out where to begin. i recently changed out the fuel pump. went in without a hitch but i guess i need to start there. i am looking for an evap system hose diagram. could be a loose or cracked vacuum line which may be hard to find. could also be one of three purge solenoids.
i think i just jacked your thread.
i don't think but am not sure if those hoses could carry the carbon far cause those hoses carry fumes...don't think there is alot of pressure. could be wrong though cause the stock fuel system runs on like 40 some pounds..

gl
ez
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:58 PM   #6
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The way the EVAP system works:

Gas fumes move from the tank to the charcoal canister where they are stored. There is a hose that connects the canister to the purge valve. Then there is another hose that connects the purge valve to the intake manifold. The purge valve is normally closed so that fumes are not being pulled into intake manifold. When the PCM commands, the purge valve opens. Fumes that were stored in the canister are drawn into the manifold by engine vacuum, and burned. Purging does change the air/fuel ratio, and the PCM compensates for it.

If the purge valve was stuck open or leaking and allowing fumes into the intake without the PCm compensating that could cause A/F problems. Or if the hoses were clogged and fumes were not making it to the intake that could also cause A/F problems That would definitaly throw a code tho. Normally purging should only occur during closed loop operation (hot, no boost) at cruising speeds. Never on acceleration.

If the pieces were small enough, pieces of charcoal could be drawn out of the canister up to the purge valve. I don't know if they would pass though or not but I guess it's possible. There is no filter between the canister and the tank so theoretically they could make it there, but I think they would be more likely to travel towards the purge valve.
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:57 PM   #7
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i am searching for a diagram for the evap system lines and purge valve location. is there more than one purge valve?
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Old 09-11-2008, 12:41 AM   #8
100_Percent_Juice
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Thanks for all the response. I have not seen any performance changes or a code thrown. The only thing that changed was the problem with filling my tank with gas. I think I am going to look in the tank to see if there is some pieces in there. I think its the only real way to find out.
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Old 09-11-2008, 12:55 AM   #9
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There is a valve in the Evap system which opens when the vehicle is powered down. This is what allows you to fill the tank at a maximum rate. If I remember correctly it runs from the canister to the filler neck (I could be wrong, its been awhile). Most likely it has picked up some charcoal in the line or valve and is not letting the tank vent to provide you with the maximum fill rate, I'd start there. When I get some time I'll go through my FSM and see if I can find you a diagram.
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:19 AM   #10
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whats the black plastic hose at the back of the canister? near the tow ring or whatever it is...mines cracked and wide open.
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:26 AM   #11
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I drove with this code (p0447) on for like 2 years (due to the wiring being severed by winter debris). Made no difference in performance. I finally got off my butt and fixed the wire that was cut at the molex connector. I just revamped the wiring and slapped some JB Weld in the connector to hold it in there. The code went away, and I'm proud to say, I have been CEL free for over 5 months now ...though I did end up cracking a ringland (unrelated).
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:59 AM   #12
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haha nice. my dad cut some extra plastic and melted it around where the hose cracked and it worked for a little bit but snapped back open so i was CEL free fro like 2 weeks then it came back
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Old 09-11-2008, 09:33 PM   #13
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Only one purge valve. It's located under the hood near the alternator, hose attaches to the passenger side intake manifold I believe, not sure tho. I'd run out and check but unfortunatly mine is in the shop (bad rod bearing).
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:38 PM   #14
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wow cool info thanks boys
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:39 AM   #15
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Found it!

There are 3 possible causes as to why your vehicle fills so slowly.

1. The vent valve in your fuel tank is not working correctly. When you fill your tank pressure builds inside the tank. When the pressure reaches a set point the vent valve opens. This allows the vapors to pass to the canister and be absorbed by the charcoal, and exits the canister as clean air to atmosphere. I don't think this is your problem.

2. The port into the charcoal canister is blocked or obstructed. If this happens no vapors can enter the canister and the evap. system would not function at all. This would cause a CEL so this is not your problem.

last but not least,

3. The port in the charcoal canister which is open to atmosphere(this goes to the drain valve) is blocked or obstructed. If this situation occurs then evap. system will continue to function properly, but the system will not be able to vent the pressure that builds in the tank when filling. If the drain valve was not functioning then you would have a CEL.

I think we have a winner. I'll post some diagrams for you too.

Last edited by my4isflat; 09-12-2008 at 12:52 AM. Reason: Forgot some stuff
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Old 09-12-2008, 12:58 AM   #16
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Here's a diagram of the On-board Refueling Vapor Recovery (ORVR) System.



I have a feeling you'll be replacing the canister and possibly the hose leading to the drain valve. Once all of that is taken care of you should be good to go. You'll have to do the dirty work yourself to find out for sure, but I'm confident that's your problem.
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Old 10-01-2008, 01:36 PM   #17
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my4isflat...big up on the evap diagram.
i snapped one of the 8 bolts that mount the pump assemlbly to the tank. i swapped the pump replaced the gasket and wanted to make sure it was tight to prevent p0442 (small evap sys leak) trouble is these bolts are way undersized and broke way too easily. apparently now i will need a new tank(480$) cause replacing the bolt will spin inside the tank when attempting to retighten it from the top side. i was hoping the 7 other tigh bolts would hold but this morning my car was filled with fuel odor. aparently now i have a large evap leak! no cel after 25 miles though.

Last edited by maxpowr; 10-01-2008 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:08 PM   #18
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/applying paddles... SHOCK!

Can we get a clarification on the other parts in this diagram?

Where are the hoses that run between front and back?
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Old 02-12-2010, 09:10 AM   #19
anthonywrxowner
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I Also have this problem with my WRX
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Old 11-19-2011, 02:58 PM   #20
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THank you so much guys, that was my problem also.

I pop the hood and checked on the intake manifold. The passenger side hose (not the one on the complete left but in the middle) was kinked.
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Old 08-14-2015, 03:49 PM   #21
PatWRX14Wagon
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Default EVAP System Error from Car Chager's RF

I had EVAP code on my 14 WRX 3 times in two weeks. Mind you its still under warranty and took the car to the dealer. 1st time they said the Evap line was clog and they cleared the line. 2nd time they changed out the canister. 3rd time a field engineer came out and tested the whole EVAP system and everything was in good shape. What he told me was that the car charger is creating a RF signal that is setting off the EVAP Code. I'm finding this hard to believe. Cant find any related posts in the forums or web. Need input if anyone has heard of this or found this plausible.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:01 PM   #22
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Default Vapor/EVAP System Questions.

They sent you incompetent field engineer. That root cause is the type of answer they give when they have no idea. Also sort of depends on what code it is. Perhaps their diagnostic strategy/calibration is crap. You did not list it and there are numerous EVAP system monitors possible.

Car charger as in a battery charger???
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Old 03-23-2016, 12:24 AM   #23
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Default P0442 Solved

Customer brought me his 2006 Impreza with this code. Turns out it was a cracked fuel tank vent valve. I didn't have a smoke machine so I used about .5 to 1.5 psi shop air introduced via the purge line at the intake manifold. Then a stethoscope with just a hose on the end to listen for leaks. A quiet garage helps so turn the stereo down. Had to cut an access hole in the floor behind the back seat but that was easy compared to dropping the tank.
Pictures and video links here.https://patscars.shutterfly.com/2006impreza
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Old 03-23-2016, 12:16 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green1955 View Post
Customer brought me his 2006 Impreza with this code. Turns out it was a cracked fuel tank vent valve. I didn't have a smoke machine so I used about .5 to 1.5 psi shop air introduced via the purge line at the intake manifold. Then a stethoscope with just a hose on the end to listen for leaks. A quiet garage helps so turn the stereo down. Had to cut an access hole in the floor behind the back seat but that was easy compared to dropping the tank.
Pictures and video links here.https://patscars.shutterfly.com/2006impreza
Jesus Christ... If I had a shop cut the chassis of my car like you did, rather than properly dropping the tank, you should expect a lawsuit.

That work is absolutely ridiculous, and while I'm glad to see you didn't weld the patch in place immediately over the tank, the downward facing screws are now an intrusion point to the tank in the event of a collision.

This is the epitome of half-assing a job; I would not be bragging about cutting corners in such an extreme way to save time. The ONLY way I could even fathom this being acceptable would be if you presented both options to the customer in the interest of saving THEM money. Even then, you've now documented the way you've set the screws towards the tank opening yourself up to a huge can of worms in the unlikely event of a major fire hazard following a collision...

This is why I don't trust mechanics with anything but a beater anymore.
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Old 04-20-2016, 12:22 PM   #25
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2485979

start there....

the gas station nozzle stopping every 1/2 gallon is a common problem as we get more miles and age on the cars. I fought this for nearly a year.


For me I was finding, at 170,000miles all the hoses were cracking or split, the stupic spring clamps SUbby used new are crap and lost tension. its not a simple fix of replacing a single part. Just do it. The canister line front to back is hard line. Its just the engine compartment and canister sides that have hose. the hard metal filler neck was over kill, I'll admit that, but I was so pissed and fed up taking 15-20 minutes to fill the tank. I took an entire Saturday and did it all.

I went to Rockauto.com and ordered the Charcoal canister, the fuel filler steel tube, the vent on the filler tube, the valve on the canister and the engine mounted EVAP solenoid. I used the vacuum line rerouting in the above thread. also ordered off ebay the charcoal canister filter (OE Subbie part). Replaced every vacuum line under the hood. While I had it all apart I made new soft hoses for all the filler tube vents and replaced the filler tube main hoses with sections from NAPA.

The only thing I didn't do was the sensor on the top of the tank. I was NOT in a place or frame of mind to drop the tank. The entire underside of the back of the car has to come down to get the tank out. I no longer have any codes and the filling issue is very rare and its now due to bad filler nozzles at the pumps. I know which local ones to avoid.

I was getting the P0457 and other "gas cap" codes daily. P0171, P0301-304 misfires, and a few others. ALL are gone now.

EVap problems are a pain in the butt. I am replacing my fuel pump this weekend and am not taking any chances, new OE tank gasket, new screws... I'm not fighting that battle ever again..
~Rob
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