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Old 02-13-2017, 05:25 PM   #1
ashokt214
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Default 2015 ECU Remap Flag

I was told by the dealer that the '15 models had an ECU that could be reflashed to stock and there was no ability for the dealer to tell that the ECU had been flashed with a non-OEM map (ex. AccessPort), if you re-flashed the original map. He mentioned specifically that the '15 models were the last year to allow this, and that the ECU's from '16 onwards would be able to determine if they had ever been remapped.

Does anyone know if this is true?
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:30 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashokt214 View Post
I was told by the dealer that the '15 models had an ECU that could be reflashed to stock and there was no ability for the dealer to tell that the ECU had been flashed with a non-OEM map (ex. AccessPort), if you re-flashed the original map. He mentioned specifically that the '15 models were the last year to allow this, and that the ECU's from '16 onwards would be able to determine if they had ever been remapped.

Does anyone know if this is true?
They're baiting you.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:32 PM   #3
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Thanks for the quick response. My first guess was in line with what you said, but wanted to make sure.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:32 PM   #4
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As I understand it the dealer can see how many times you started the car since your last ECU flash.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:33 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by downsouthman1 View Post
They're baiting you.
What would they be baiting him to obtain?????

I don't know what year it would apply to, but I know for sure a 2003 can't tell, and I believe a 2016 CAN tell, so at some point in time from 03 to 16 they adjusted their programming to be able to tell.
Sounds legit to me.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:34 PM   #6
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Would they be able to tell when the ECU was reflashed?
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:40 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
What would they be baiting him to obtain?????

I don't know what year it would apply to, but I know for sure a 2003 can't tell, and I believe a 2016 CAN tell, so at some point in time from 03 to 16 they adjusted their programming to be able to tell.
Sounds legit to me.
To mod, so if he has a failure, they can deny. Aside from the cost of "pay to play", there's a reason I'm stock. That and the 100k powertrain warranty in my contract.
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Old 02-13-2017, 05:48 PM   #8
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Nobody knows the answer for sure, the general consensus has been that they CANT tell if you've flashed a new map or not, but they can look at how many times you've cycled the ignition on since the last flash. This is according to Cobb, the people who reverse engineered the ECU in the first place and the people selling the AP. If you wanna believe them that's your choice, I personally do, but they probably the know the stock ECU the best besides Subaru.


The issue with ignition cycling is this, you bring in your car with 40,000 miles on it and the dealer looks at the cycle count and sees 100 starts. No way did you drive 40,000 miles only starting the car 100 times, it's physically impossible. That by itself is evidence enough for fraud and denial of a warranty claim.

Sure, you can try to argue that your low ignition cycle count (say it's at least a reasonable number) is just the result of you taking a ton of long trips, but Subaru has seen enough people try to **** them over that they know what to look for.

You say they should cover it, they say they shouldn't, your only option to get them to cover it is to lawyer up. In which (if you did flash the map) you've really upped the Fraud claim here (opening yourself to a litany of criminal charges) and are still going to be out a car until it is resolved. In which case you can bet SOA will have an excellent legal group of which to defend themselves.

If you wanna mod the car (yes, even just a tune) then start reciting "Pay to play" and you'll be in good shape.
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:36 PM   #9
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The Mad Scientist (NESIC OG member) [RIP] figured out how to tell if a Subaru ECU was reflashed back in the before time. Search up Davenow's posts from when TMS passed away or PM him (tell him Jack sent you). What the dealer means is that HE is unable to figure this out. He likely also needs a garmin to figure out where his ass is when he goes to the men's room.

Most dealers don't have a competent computer programmer on staff because what the hell do they care if a car has been flashed or not. They only care that SOA is going to pay for warranty work. If Subaru cares, they'll make a push button on their diagnostic machine to check it. It can be done, absolutely. Whether a tech can tell? That's a different story.
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Old 02-13-2017, 07:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
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The Mad Scientist (NESIC OG member) [RIP] figured out how to tell if a Subaru ECU was reflashed back in the before time. Search up Davenow's posts from when TMS passed away or PM him (tell him Jack sent you). What the dealer means is that HE is unable to figure this out. He likely also needs a garmin to figure out where his ass is when he goes to the men's room.

Most dealers don't have a competent computer programmer on staff because what the hell do they care if a car has been flashed or not. They only care that SOA is going to pay for warranty work. If Subaru cares, they'll make a push button on their diagnostic machine to check it. It can be done, absolutely. Whether a tech can tell? That's a different story.
Thanks for the detailed insight. Makes sense that they wont normally bother, but can tell if they really wanted to. I got the Gold Plus warranty and was thinking about an Accessport a few months ago, but wasn't sure if that would void the warranty or not.
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:01 PM   #11
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Just keep in mind any serious damage (ie new motor) and they will absolutely check. No question.

Warranties cant be voided, claims can only be denied on a case by case basis. Go read the threads in the warranty section for some real life examples.
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Old 02-13-2017, 10:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
Just keep in mind any serious damage (ie new motor) and they will absolutely check. No question.

Warranties cant be voided, claims can only be denied on a case by case basis. Go read the threads in the warranty section for some real life examples.
You go to the warranty section. Warranties can be voided. Take your car with you to Canada. VOID. Do that cool STI cluster swap in your new Outback. VOID. There are like 5-6 things that will legit void 100% of your warranty.
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:40 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
You go to the warranty section. Warranties can be voided. Take your car with you to Canada. VOID. Do that cool STI cluster swap in your new Outback. VOID. There are like 5-6 things that will legit void 100% of your warranty.
How the **** does that work? You mean like moving to Canada voids your US Warranty? Surely you don't mean driving to Canada means a voided warranty... How would they even begin to prove that unless you told them?
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
Just keep in mind any serious damage (ie new motor) and they will absolutely check. No question.

Warranties cant be voided, claims can only be denied on a case by case basis. Go read the threads in the warranty section for some real life examples.
And this is why I'm stock for now.
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashokt214 View Post
Thanks for the detailed insight. Makes sense that they wont normally bother, but can tell if they really wanted to. I got the Gold Plus warranty and was thinking about an Accessport a few months ago, but wasn't sure if that would void the warranty or not.
ahhhh the gold plus warranty.
That means if anything goes wrong you have a 0.001% chance of it being covered as compared to the silver warranty where there is a 0.0002% chance of coverage.

Get the ap if you want it, your warranty (other than the regular manufacturers warranty) is useless anyway, wait till you go in for a claim.
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Old 02-14-2017, 01:09 PM   #16
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Check your facts bro, gold plan has the .0002%; not the other way around.

But yeah, that dealership will do anything they can to get out of an aftermarket warranty
Take it from someone who learned the expensive way.
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:14 PM   #17
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Check your facts bro, gold plan has the .0002%; not the other way around.
good catch.

I get careless with my decimal point placement when talking about the likelihood of redeeming an aftermarket warranty claim.
It's hard to keep track of whether or not to put the decimal 3 places beyond zero or 4 places.
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Old 02-14-2017, 04:22 PM   #18
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Considering how generous you were being with your percentages...


OP, we already know you're going to get the AP. Just return your warranty now and get whatever pro-rated amount back you can.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:06 AM   #19
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Default 2015 ECU Remap Flag

Find a tuner cool dealer, some will just not warranty the parts, others will make up some BS about how your drop in filter caused the Turbo to blow up. From what Cobb said was they can tell how many times you've flashed by the ECU being reset. I'm in NJ and the only thing that seems to not detect me being stage 2 protuned is the inspection station lol

Subaru had been getting very strict with what they warranty, one of the FAQs I believe labels out a notice to a scoob tech that they will and can void a warranty for mods you do.
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:55 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlarryHoodDIT View Post
Nobody knows the answer for sure, the general consensus has been that they CANT tell if you've flashed a new map or not, but they can look at how many times you've cycled the ignition on since the last flash. This is according to Cobb, the people who reverse engineered the ECU in the first place and the people selling the AP. If you wanna believe them that's your choice, I personally do, but they probably the know the stock ECU the best besides Subaru.


The issue with ignition cycling is this, you bring in your car with 40,000 miles on it and the dealer looks at the cycle count and sees 100 starts. No way did you drive 40,000 miles only starting the car 100 times, it's physically impossible. That by itself is evidence enough for fraud and denial of a warranty claim.

Sure, you can try to argue that your low ignition cycle count (say it's at least a reasonable number) is just the result of you taking a ton of long trips, but Subaru has seen enough people try to **** them over that they know what to look for.

You say they should cover it, they say they shouldn't, your only option to get them to cover it is to lawyer up. In which (if you did flash the map) you've really upped the Fraud claim here (opening yourself to a litany of criminal charges) and are still going to be out a car until it is resolved. In which case you can bet SOA will have an excellent legal group of which to defend themselves.

If you wanna mod the car (yes, even just a tune) then start reciting "Pay to play" and you'll be in good shape.
Doesn't removing the battery also reset the ignition counter? So if you have 40k miles, and 100 on the ignition count, you could just say your removed your battery 100 starts ago. I think the real probem is if you flash your car, then blow something up, and flash it back to the stock map, you are going to have 0 on the ignition counter. If you bring it to the dealer broken, with 0, or very few ignition counts, then it looks fishy. But if you have hundreds or more on the ignition counter, then it breaks, it could be explained away by you saying you reset your battery. This is my understanding, but I could be wrong.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiplash willy View Post
Doesn't removing the battery also reset the ignition counter? So if you have 40k miles, and 100 on the ignition count, you could just say your removed your battery 100 starts ago. I think the real probem is if you flash your car, then blow something up, and flash it back to the stock map, you are going to have 0 on the ignition counter. If you bring it to the dealer broken, with 0, or very few ignition counts, then it looks fishy. But if you have hundreds or more on the ignition counter, then it breaks, it could be explained away by you saying you reset your battery. This is my understanding, but I could be wrong.
I believe flashing the ECU (ANY method, dealer, COBB, open source) is the only way to set the flag.
Dead/disconnected battery or "cleared ECU" (CEL scanner) only gets back to baseline learning and clears CEL's and readiness indicators.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:04 PM   #22
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If the battery did that then you'd lose the program entirely and the car would be disabled. So it must have actual memory.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:50 PM   #23
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Not that your dealer/SOA would be persuaded...but as far as I know, I'm 100% allowed to reflash my ECU with a factory-approved map (say, a factory update or just rewriting over top of the old stock map). Simply because the cycle count indicates a flash, it's circumstantial rather than proof-positive that an aftermarket tune was on the car.

Tell them it wouldn't start, and one of the things you tried doing was reflashing the stock ROM. Tell them you thought it was like reinstalling a fresh operating system to make it run better. I don't know, make something up.

Just like seeing a tool mark on a DP bolt or something. Last I checked, I was allowed to put wrenches on my nuts and bolts, and not lose my warranty. Not proof-positive of anything, I wanted to check on the condition of my cats, that's all. I love cats.

You're much more likely to be denied actually having the map or hard parts on the car vs. having them off the car, albeit with trace potential evidence of them. Not that I'd advocate potential fraud or anything.
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Old 02-17-2017, 01:39 PM   #24
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Or how about not trying to hide anything.

Be honest with the dealer and don't treat them like the enemy. They might work with you, they might not. But you knew that going in when you decided to replace Subaru's programming with something completely different.
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