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Old 11-14-2016, 02:20 PM   #1
leonbmx
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Default Fuel surge tank in WRX wagon

I have a 2005 WRX wagon that has been converted to a full on track car. At the moment it's just track days, but I may want to get into NASA timed events at some stage.

Currently I have a Crawford AOS/ fuel surge tank (32oz?) in the engine bay, and while it works well, I just got some ID1700's that probably will max out my current fuel setup, which consists of a DW300 in tank and a 044 up front fed by the surge tank.

Detail of fuel setup:



I've had my eye on a radium surge tank to mount in the back, but before I go that route, I wanted to see what the other track wagons on here had done?

I seem to recall that there was a fire bulkhead requirement near the rear seats for sedans with surge tanks in the back, that wagons obviously can't meet?
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Last edited by leonbmx; 07-07-2017 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:53 PM   #2
kos
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I *think* Taylor from Snail is gonna be selling his surge tank setup. Might want to ping him and see whats up.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:56 PM   #3
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You could always just put an aluminum battery box in the trunk area and place the surge tank in there. Use bulkhead fittings to run the lines inside. Or you could fab something similar...just a way to enclose the tank.
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Old 11-15-2016, 09:00 PM   #4
leonbmx
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Thanks for the replies guys! I typed the original message without measuring anything... Ass U Me

In my mind the Crawford can was way smaller than it really is, it's 3.5" dia x 8" tall, so ~43oz (1.25L).

The Radium surgetank that I was considering is 1.5L, but the actual fuel volume is less than that, as the hanger and in-tank-pump volume needs to be subtracted. So not a lot to be gained there.

Although to be fair, most other surge tanks allow you to put two, or more, pumps together so the ultimate flow is higher than my current setup.

This got me thinking though, so the in tank DW300 flows around 340 lph (I am assuming these results are with gas, so E85 may be less), and the 044 up front flows 260 lph. I am wondering if I should get a higher flowing pump, like a walbro 267 E85, instead of the 044, and improve the flow that way?

I did a few fuel system calculations, but somehow the results varied a lot.



Deatchwerks, Raceworks and Fuel Injector Clinic all yield results close to 400 L/hr, which the Walbro 267 "should" be able to achieve. But then I look at the Injector Dynamics chart and, even at 71% IDC, I'd need ~670 L/hr, which almost seems like their graph reads in LB/hr, as the conversion is around 1.59.


EDIT: Just realized that the walbro 267 is an in tank pump... I need to read sloooower it appears...

Anybody have any experience with an in line AEM 380lph(AEM 380lph) Or alternatively, the Aeromotive A1000? I am kind of worried that the latter may outflow the surgetank capacity.

Last edited by leonbmx; 07-07-2017 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 11-16-2016, 10:09 AM   #5
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FWIW I'm going to be running this Radium MPFST Multi-Pump Fuel Surge Tank with two AEM 50-1200 Pumps, and going to throw another 50-1200 in the Fuel Tank to replace the DW300 that's in there now. Most likely will go -8 to the front. The Radium tank is advertised at 2.0L of capacity when paired with two pumps, so that's pretty solid as well.
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Old 11-16-2016, 10:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kos View Post
FWIW I'm going to be running this Radium MPFST Multi-Pump Fuel Surge Tank with two AEM 50-1200 Pumps, and going to throw another 50-1200 in the Fuel Tank to replace the DW300 that's in there now. Most likely will go -8 to the front. The Radium tank is advertised at 2.0L of capacity when paired with two pumps, so that's pretty solid as well.
That looks like an awesome setup, I love Radium's stuff.

With the pumps contained in the surge tank, what WOULD the issue be to have this without a bulkhead? I have an extra port on my fire suppression system that I can dedicate to the surge tank.

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Old 11-19-2016, 04:10 PM   #7
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So if I were to go with a dual pump radium MPFST, would I run into regulatory issues when I place it on the rear passenger side?

I currently have my accusump on the rear driver's side, so I figured it would nicely balance it out.



Kos, how are you going to be staging your pumps? I was looking at the radium pressure switch, looks like a pretty simple install, but I am not 100% familiar with the available options.

My current setup, as it appears, has the 044 on full time and the in tank DW300 is hooked up to the factory wiring, so I take it that increases flow on demand.

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Old 11-21-2016, 10:55 AM   #8
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If you look at section 15.4 in the NASA CCR, it was intended for fuel cells but would apply to surge tanks as well:

"There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment."

In other words, you should probably just put all of the fuel system components in an aluminum enclosure of some sort. If you've ever seen video of how quickly a fuel fire can get out of control, you'd want as much protection as possible.
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Old 11-21-2016, 03:01 PM   #9
leonbmx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boost junkie View Post
If you look at section 15.4 in the NASA CCR, it was intended for fuel cells but would apply to surge tanks as well:

"There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment."

In other words, you should probably just put all of the fuel system components in an aluminum enclosure of some sort. If you've ever seen video of how quickly a fuel fire can get out of control, you'd want as much protection as possible.
Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear, well, not really, haha!

I have some ideas on the enclosure, I'll start drafting them up.

Would you happen to know if there is a vapor vent requirement? Although by using ptfe lined hoses, it should be minimal.
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Old 11-22-2016, 03:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leonbmx View Post
Kos, how are you going to be staging your pumps? I was looking at the radium pressure switch, looks like a pretty simple install, but I am not 100% familiar with the available options.

My current setup, as it appears, has the 044 on full time and the in tank DW300 is hooked up to the factory wiring, so I take it that increases flow on demand.
I was just going to wire them in normally, wasn't going to run the pressure switch.
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Old 12-15-2016, 12:05 AM   #11
leonbmx
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I came across a great deal on a MAP Universal surge tank on eBay, so I decided to go that route.

It came complete with 2 walbro 267's, so that should be plenty of fuel.





The beauty of this one, and the smaller, horizontal Radium Surgetank for that matter, is that it fits under the aluminum plate/ cover that is installed instead of the spare tire wheel well, so it will effectively be outside of the cabin, and as such I won't need a separate box/ fire wall.




Like so:


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Old 07-07-2017, 04:33 PM   #12
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glad I found this! So I have been looking into this a lot myself I got and 07 wagon I started tracking, im on e85 so I am getting bad fuel cuts when my fuel level drops below 3/4 a tank on hard rights since all the fuel slouches to the left which sucks cause that's still a lot of extra weight to get cuts at compared to on 91 I got them at less than a quarter.

I have look into all the radium one and universal applications as well not liking the look of the pricing lol.

so then I looked into the holly hydra mats which are a great idea and would be ideal for most cars, but since our fuel tanks are saddle shaped and run over the exhaust its not looking like a great option.

so I have come to a different conclusion.. that I discussed with a much more veteran Subaru racer than I and he thinks its worth a shot but wanna hear some more opinions.

my idea is to run either a hard line or stiff fuel line running off of a T to the left side of the gas tank with a second filter on it. no do I think this is the best option possible no, but when it comes to price and if it works seems very reasonable. so two filters to one pump.

thoughts?
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Old 07-07-2017, 07:45 PM   #13
kos
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We tried a Hydramat in snailperofmancesally's WRX since she wasn't quite ready to go big like me with Radium and AN galore, but it was just a small bandaid and the issue still occurred. Knowing what I know now, I would just save up and do it right the first time and go surge tank. Not worth the time and money spent changing from setup to setup.
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Old 07-07-2017, 07:46 PM   #14
leonbmx
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Aside from the surge tank, I also installed a Radium venturi jet pump and a holley Hydramat. I have ID1700's on E85 and I have no fuel issues whatsoever, not even when going WOT on the track with the fuel empty light on.

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