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Old 06-05-2017, 12:23 AM   #1
ElroyDanabe
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Default Who runs pure methanol for fuel?

Just curious. Moran injectors with big magnafuel 750 pumps, -10 -8 lines. seems to be the norm with high hp cars (mitsu,chev,ford etc).

Who's doing it or has thought about it in the subie world?
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Old 06-05-2017, 12:33 AM   #2
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only morans run pure methanol, stick ID and ethanol
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Old 06-05-2017, 01:06 AM   #3
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Morans running 8's and under..

I'm talking BME rods, x8 5000cc injectors, concreted blocks, coolant jackets left only in heads, 10 gal fuel cell, 3 gallon AOS, eye burning methanol. Pure drag stuff.

Why haven't we witnessed anyone doing it yet? Have I missed something? Is someone currently trying/doing this?
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Old 06-05-2017, 02:08 AM   #4
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Why stop at methanol? Go all the way to Nitro!
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Old 06-05-2017, 06:31 AM   #5
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I don't know why people act like it's crazy. It's not nitro methane.
It's basically ethanol with slight differences.

The reason it doesn't make sense is that you can't get it without really going out of your way. If you want to stock drums at your place though you can run it. I ran it in my carbureted big block for a few months but gave up and jetted back to gasoline because it wasn't worth the headache of having to pick up drums of fuel to store at home.
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Old 06-05-2017, 07:16 AM   #6
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its too much work for not enough results. just use ethanol.
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Old 06-05-2017, 11:01 PM   #7
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So the ease of finding E85 trumps the massive cooling effect meth has and negates the fact that methanol also carries more oxygen than e85?

I get the point of not having to goof with finding,storing and ordering it. But for big power it is totally passed by in the Subaru game? Cmon.. Why?

There are plenty of people in the racing world that have noted substantial HP gains from switching.

Almost like folks are scared of it.

Plenty of good scholarly articles on the stuff.
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Old 06-06-2017, 12:08 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElroyDanabe View Post
So the ease of finding E85 trumps the massive cooling effect meth has and negates the fact that methanol also carries more oxygen than e85?

I get the point of not having to goof with finding,storing and ordering it. But for big power it is totally passed by in the Subaru game? Cmon.. Why?

There are plenty of people in the racing world that have noted substantial HP gains from switching.

Almost like folks are scared of it.

Plenty of good scholarly articles on the stuff.
This is probably because all the high power builds on E85 blow apart blocks already, so there's no need for methanol as it would be pointless replacing our block every run with that kind of power. Now that the billet block is a thing I don't doubt that someone somewhere will start playing with it now that there is a motor that can actually hold together at that kind of power level.
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:14 AM   #9
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So the ease of finding E85 trumps the massive cooling effect meth has and negates the fact that methanol also carries more oxygen than e85?
hmmmmmmm

1) they are both alcohols and have essentially the same cooling affects (gasoline does that too you know, it's a solvent as well)
2) it doesn't carry more oxygen
3) and isn't the availability of a fuel pretty much the most important thing for a street car?
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:34 AM   #10
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Correct- they both are alcohols and have cooling affects.

1. Alcohols commonly known as; wood (methanol) organic "sugar" (e85). However, the cooling affect of each is different. For example: when you tune for E85 add 30% to base map and fuel system. Car will start. Methanol, something like 50% or more needs to be added to pump fuel tables and fuel system before the car will fire. Less heat also comes from lower BTU rating. We know this from ethanol- where it really makes a difference is the amount that is sprayed into a cylinder per combustion cycle. There is a reason ethanol guys still run inter-coolers and methanol guys do not.

2. I might hit up some of those aforementioned scholarly articles to get the scoop on how exactly it carries more oxygen.

3. Sorry for the confusion man- not talking street - see post 3. Drag stuff only. I currently have 5 gallons of VP that I picked up from my local fuel supplier. Needed it for the Howerton engineering injection kit.


Whatever the case I get it - folks just are not into it for subaru drag cars. Ill leave it at that. I am fairly positive we will see someone try, say within the next year or so. The fuel system and cheapo version of the block that may stand up to 40+psi on methanol is laid out in this thread. Be sure to use the Copper head gaskets and o'ring heads and block of course.

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Old 06-06-2017, 04:10 PM   #11
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Less heat also comes from lower BTU rating.

2. I might hit up some of those aforementioned scholarly articles to get the scoop on how exactly it carries more oxygen.
The lower BTU rating is on a per unit mass basis, so that is irrelevant, you fuel way richer with either one than gasoline to the point of making MORE power (btu's), which is the whole point.
Hell, nitro methane is a tiny fraction the BTU content per unit mass and we all know it doesn't make less power. It makes up for it because you can use countless times more.
BTU's are exactly what you are after
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:47 PM   #12
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RTV900- You are correct -

I even stated that more fuel will be sprayed per combustion ( I understand your point, More BTU due to volume burned) I'm a dork and should have thought that one out a bit more lol. Dang engineers. So now we have established it would actually be more heat per combustion cycle.

But, it cools so well because of latent heat of vaporization.?? yes no

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Old 06-07-2017, 01:48 AM   #13
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:41 PM   #14
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But, it cools so well because of latent heat of vaporization.?? yes no
that would be a yes.
alcohol cools stuff very well when it vaporizes
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:47 PM   #15
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The reason Methanol makes more power than Ethanol and gasoline is because of it's Stoich relationship with its BTU.

Methanol has the lowest BTU of the three but to reach a suitable lambda for power you have to burn a whole lot more of it. So you end up with MORE BTUs even though the fuel by itself, liter for liter, has less BTU.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:48 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
The lower BTU rating is on a per unit mass basis, so that is irrelevant, you fuel way richer with either one than gasoline to the point of making MORE power (btu's), which is the whole point.
Hell, nitro methane is a tiny fraction the BTU content per unit mass and we all know it doesn't make less power. It makes up for it because you can use countless times more.
BTU's are exactly what you are after
Didn't see you already addressed this
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Old 06-10-2017, 01:05 AM   #17
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Well now- in the last few posts we have formed quite a nice discussion about how methanol has the potential to make more power and cools better than E85.

Thank you, to all that have contributed so far. I feel sometimes the Subaru community lives in a closed box that is influenced by a small group. The idea behind this post is to open up the box and look to new horizons of making more power with our platform using methanol.

We could probably discuss differences in content from fill up to fill up (e85), but I feel that is already being discussed heavily in other forums across the IOT - Internet of things...

Another intersting topic is running methanol with e85. Crazy right??. Almost like telling people that you bought a closed deck block and then sent it to Benson for sleeves, o'rings and pinned mains.

Either way, I'm still looking for the reply that someone is, or is thinking about running methanol as a primary source of fuel.
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:57 AM   #18
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methanol is also corrosive and carcinogenic
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:35 AM   #19
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How would running methanol with ethanol be beneficial in anyway?

Methanol is basically ethanol's exaggerated older brother. Requires more of it (thirsty!!), cools roughly 2x as well, still only carries one oxygen in, enables making more power.
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:42 PM   #20
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Homemade WRX, I asked the same question when I started out on this crazy adventure.

What I found after talking with V8 guys making big power on E85 and looking on other forums for info, I came to this:

Inconsistencies with E85 (pump) from fill up to fill up lead some folks to tune conservatively (some power left on the table). Mostly the guys that don't have flex fuel sensors or really inconsistent fuel. Running both E85 and Methanol injection allows for a little safety when you get the bad batch and higher octane when using 100% methanol. Hard on pumps- yes, but for the guy that wants the added piece of mind and may already have the kit installed, it's not a bad thing. It also has prevented a few people from having to buy bigger injectors when they switch to Ethanol. All sort of positive things to me.

I'm not saying to rush out and install a methanol injection kit and 2-4 nozzles on top of E85 - just know that some have done it and it and it seems to work. In some cases, extra power was realized due to being able to extend the tuning window. The main comment these folks had made that caught my attention was how much cooler you can keep the intake when spraying methanol vs just using E85 alone. Another benefit to me especially when you live in a state that can see 100F during track events.

Paul Yaw of injector D has a good write up on E85 posted on the website. After reading that article and finding some dyno plots with this combination, it seemed to make even more sense to try it out.
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Old 06-12-2017, 04:23 PM   #21
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It also has prevented a few people from having to buy bigger injectors when they switch to Ethanol.
^I don't understand this at all.

The only way you could run E85 without increasing fuel delivery capability significantly is if you HAD TO inject methanol through other injectors the whole time. Seems kind of backwards thinking to me to basically install a full second set of dedicated injectors just to get out of replacing the primary injectors???

So essentially you are setting up a motor to KNOW you are going to run lean (dangerously lean that is) and rely on secondary injection to supply the methanol?

I'm not saying it can't work, but boy oh boy you better hope that secondary set doesn't fail.
Not to mention the tuning difficulty getting a computer to understand that.
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Old 06-12-2017, 06:43 PM   #22
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RTV900 - I'm not saying to do this with stock 500cc injectors, that's just pure insanity. lol.

The examples I found were folks running 1300-1500CC injectors coming close to, or maxxing out on E85 because they wanted more power and had made the switch from pump gas, but the current setup didn't have the capacity (headroom) to push it. A lot of these guys also had a methanol injection kit already installed on the car with 2-4 nozzles at (1100-1400cc) total progressive injection. In the context of that example, I may consider it plausible.

I completely agree with your sound logic that it's not a good idea to run so close to the ragged edge of things. I too have reservations when it comes to relying on a methanol injection kits failsafe activating when tuning that lean. I can also see the point that when it's done right, and not being used as the fix all for too small of injectors - it probably would work to provide headroom. In moderation....

Also- This conversation on E85 with Methanol injection was sort of a spin-off from the original post.
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Old 06-12-2017, 10:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElroyDanabe View Post
Homemade WRX, I asked the same question when I started out on this crazy adventure.

What I found after talking with V8 guys making big power on E85 and looking on other forums for info, I came to this:

Inconsistencies with E85 (pump) from fill up to fill up lead some folks to tune conservatively (some power left on the table). Mostly the guys that don't have flex fuel sensors or really inconsistent fuel. Running both E85 and Methanol injection allows for a little safety when you get the bad batch and higher octane when using 100% methanol. Hard on pumps- yes, but for the guy that wants the added piece of mind and may already have the kit installed, it's not a bad thing. It also has prevented a few people from having to buy bigger injectors when they switch to Ethanol. All sort of positive things to me.

I'm not saying to rush out and install a methanol injection kit and 2-4 nozzles on top of E85 - just know that some have done it and it and it seems to work. In some cases, extra power was realized due to being able to extend the tuning window. The main comment these folks had made that caught my attention was how much cooler you can keep the intake when spraying methanol vs just using E85 alone. Another benefit to me especially when you live in a state that can see 100F during track events.

Paul Yaw of injector D has a good write up on E85 posted on the website. After reading that article and finding some dyno plots with this combination, it seemed to make even more sense to try it out.
So again, why would you cut methanol with ethanol...you would just suck up the extra fuel consumption and run 100 methanol.
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Old 06-13-2017, 02:34 PM   #24
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Homemade:

Maybe I'm not understanding your last question. I'll answer the best I can.

You don't cut it- you inject it via aquamist setup in addition to running E85. Again, this side convo on running E85 with methanol injection is a spin from the original topic.
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Old 06-13-2017, 03:53 PM   #25
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I prefer to mix my ethanol at around 11% with beer, and then drink it!

I call it B11
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