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Old 03-28-2010, 01:16 PM   #1
mick_the_ginge
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Oil Dry Sump Goodness

Default Oiling System - Mick's recommendation for if I had to do it all over again

Back in 2007 as part of one of my builds I did a custom oil dry sump setup on my engine, details of that build are here: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1272571

A couple of pictures of the oil dry sump pump and tank.





Anyway it's been working very well, I'm hapy with it and I have got used to the maintenance (12-16 quart oil changes), warm up routine (20-30 minutes) and the extra weight of the setup. (ignoring the $$$$$$ that I put into building this setup)

So the question is, what would I do differently if I had to do it all over again?

Answer: I would not do a dry sump system.

I've mentioned this in other threads and thought I would note down my thoughts in a thread of it's own.

If I had to do it all over again I would install the follow which IMO is going to satisfy 95% of the builds.

#1 - Larger Oil Pan with integrated pickup
#2 - Larger or modified stock location oil pump
#3 - Accusump :- Optional but recommended for AutoX and Track use
#4 - Oil Cooler :- Optional but recommended for Track use

With these parts IMO you have a pretty bullet proof setup, so let me explain.

#1 - Larger Oil Pan with integrated pickup
More oil is better and there are now multiple options on the market that are tried and tested. I am not going to comment on which one I think is better, just look for one that has a larger oil capacity (Duh), integrated oil pickup and some sort of baffling. This is going to help with high G oil starvation and potential problem that have been seen with the stock pickup cracking.

#2 - Larger or modified stock location oil pump
Built engines with larger than stock bearing clearances need more flow and oil pressure. Again you now have so many options for stock location oil pumps. The 11mm and 12mm dealer supplied as well as the aftermarket modified versions of these. Combined with the larger oil pan and pickup you will have a great oil supply. Note: You need an oil pressure and oil temp guauge to know what pressure you are running at what RPM. Rule of thumb, 10psi oil pressure needed for 1000 rpm. I like to add 5psi to this. So at 7000 rpm you want 75 psi min at the max operating temp. Either shim or change oil to get this.

#3 - Accusump :- Optional but recommended for AutoX and Track use
If you plan to do alot of AutoX or track time which will high G stress the car I still recommend an Accusump.



Even with a larger oil pan with pickup and baffles and higher flow oil pump you may still be able to starve the oil pump or suck up some air which will reduce your oil pressure. An Accusump is a good backup system for if this happens. It's a simple oil accumulator which backs up your engine oiling system. The oil pump pressurizes it and when the oil pressure drops off the accusump keeps the pressure stable for a little amount of time. So if you suck up an air bubble the Accusump will keep the oil pressure stable until the oil pump picks up again. An Accusump will also help with oiling during initial start up. Oh and you get to run yet another 2-3 quarts of oil as it's stored in the accusump itself.

You can plumb the Accusump into either the front or rear oil galley on top of the block. Or "T" it in (with no backfill check valve) to your oil cooler. Or I think it could be plumbed into a port on an oil sandwich adapter.

#4 - Oil Cooler :- Optional but recommended for Track use
As oil gets hot we all know it gets thinner. Track use especially in hot areas will stress the cooling system and an oil cooler can help manage oil temps. Remember the oil goes to more places than the coolant so it does the lions share of engine cooling. Again, many options on the market now. Look for ones that have at least dash 10 input/output otherwise the oil cooler may actually cause a restriction. I personally like the sandwich adapters that include a temperature controlled valve which bypasses the oil cooler while the oil is cool.

So that's it, Mick's recommendation on a oiling system. I'm sure I have forgotten a couple of items and not everyone is going to agree with me... but it's only my view and recommendation so you don't have to listen to me
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Old 03-28-2010, 01:41 PM   #2
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Mick, nice write up! Our stock pans can fit 6qts of oil so that should really be enough and the aftermarket pans really aren't a huge neccessity. I opted to keep my stock pan for now, but if I am having problems with keeping oil pressure up top I will change it. I did get the new pickup, oil cooler, aftermarket shimmed oil pump, etc.

I would cry if I knew how much your dry sump setup cost. Those fittings are probably $40 a piece. haha
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Old 03-28-2010, 02:20 PM   #3
mick_the_ginge
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The only issue I can think of is when running the stock pan with more than stock capacity is that you *can* whip the oil into a froth. The stock windage tray is not going to be able to shield the oil if it's higher in the stock pan. This is what the Cosworth baffle is supposed to help with when used in conjunction with the stock pan.

I can't say if this really happens and I used to run 5-6 quarts in a stock pan. I'm just commenting on what could be happening in the pan.

*You* cry at how much I have spent on my setup (Pot calling the kettle black)
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Old 03-28-2010, 02:42 PM   #4
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Totally makes sense, but IIRC the moroso units don't hold more oil, do they? I only think the killerB ones are high volume.

hahahahah! I do have around 90-100 -an fittings BUT they mostly consist of -6an & -8an, and just a small portion was -10an. Those dry sump fittings are HUGE so they really must have been expensive. You still have more motors then me. :P
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Old 03-28-2010, 02:48 PM   #5
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Great write up Mick, so i should be straight with my setup? I hope the hip is doing well.
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Old 03-28-2010, 04:40 PM   #6
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just a note on sandwich adapters, I use a mocal unit and on cold days the amount of oil that bypasses the shuttle (actually probably forcing it open due to the subys high oil pressure, 90+ psi) in the adapter will cause oil temps to drop pretty low, im moving my cooler into the front fender well and putting a large thermostatic fan on it to take care of the problem, just an fyi.
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Old 03-28-2010, 08:16 PM   #7
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Mick, what kind of power did you pick up when you went Dry sump?
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Old 03-28-2010, 08:59 PM   #8
mick_the_ginge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
Mick, what kind of power did you pick up when you went Dry sump?
Too many variables, hard to tell. However I expect it was very little and if any the weight I added would had surely offset it.

I'm not saying that a dry sump system is not the bee's knees of oiling systems, I'm just saying that most of the time it's not really needed. You can do all the items mentioned in the #1 post for a fraction of the cost of a dry sump system. But if you have the $$ and you want the best oil system then of course you need to go dry sump. Other components play their part as well such as straight drilled cranks so an oil dry sump is not the silver bullet that it's sometimes refered to.
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Old 03-28-2010, 09:23 PM   #9
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Ok no worries, I sort of figured you most likely changed a whole slew of things at the same time so it hard to say about picking up power...
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Old 03-28-2010, 10:25 PM   #10
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Great write up! Thanks.
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Old 03-29-2010, 11:49 AM   #11
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does the drysump actually solve the oil blow out aswell?

4laps= 500ml
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:31 PM   #12
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Nice concise write-up sir, this is the setup we've landed on and have been recommending...we kinda figure if you have oil starvation issues with a 3qt Accusump, thermostat'd cooler and shimmed/high-flow 11mm or 12mm pump, it's gotta be you

Am looking at doing a 1qt the hood with the 20-25psi electric EPC valve. Thoughts for use in a daily? I figure this smaller capacity would allow me to just wire the valve to ignition and forget about it but still provide backup if oil pressure takes a crap for some reason.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:46 PM   #13
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+1???


Quote:
Originally Posted by acssa View Post
does the drysump actually solve the oil blow out aswell?

4laps= 500ml
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Old 03-29-2010, 01:11 PM   #14
mick_the_ginge
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Oil Dry Sump Goodness

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Quote:
Originally Posted by acssa View Post
does the drysump actually solve the oil blow out aswell?

4laps= 500ml
A 3 stage dry sump like I have no, I run a drain back VTA catch can which only vents if I have positive crank case pressure. This track vented oil is mainly just blowing out the top of the heads, not the block. A drain back catch can resolves this and can be used on any setup. The oil that is blowing out of the heads is not like the traditional blowby you see from the crank case. However in a normal breather setup it gets mixed in with standard blowby and turns milky.

My dry sump tank has a breather and I am amazed at how much "water" condensation it collects. This is all being boiled out of the oil.

A 5 stage dry sump pump could be connected to each of the heads to drain them and resolve the issue. 5 Stage pumps are large but can be made to fit. $$$$$$

Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelucas View Post
Nice concise write-up sir, this is the setup we've landed on and have been recommending...we kinda figure if you have oil starvation issues with a 3qt Accusump, thermostat'd cooler and shimmed/high-flow 11mm or 12mm pump, it's gotta be you

Am looking at doing a 1qt the hood with the 20-25psi electric EPC valve. Thoughts for use in a daily? I figure this smaller capacity would allow me to just wire the valve to ignition and forget about it but still provide backup if oil pressure takes a crap for some reason.
Don't forget that with the EPC and the 20-25 psi valve the accusump will only step in when the pressure drops below 20-25psi. This is perfect for start up oiling but is not going to help much at higher RPM's. You may want to consider the higher rated valves, 55-60 psi. This means above this value the EPC is disabled and the accusump fills fast, below this the EPC opens and flows both ways as needed.
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Old 03-29-2010, 11:06 PM   #15
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Nice write up. Before I was running a peterson fluid catch can with no drain back and it would fill up basically after an hour of racing. Now I have a crawford air oil separator and I don't loose any oil at all even after 2 hours of track time.
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Old 03-30-2010, 01:03 AM   #16
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thanks for the info mick!
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Old 03-31-2010, 02:02 AM   #17
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Great info once again Mick! I love all your threads, thanks man. I'm getting the accusump for my car, already have the ARC pan with killerB pickup.
What do you suggest the 3qt with the 50psi valve going to the oil cooler or...
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:02 PM   #18
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I'm curious if those of you running aftermarket headers would be able to fit the OEM non-turbo oil pan, which is bigger than the turbo pan. I'm not a turbo guy, so I don't know much about how the aftermarket headers are routed compared to the OEM turbo headers; I know the OEM turbo header cuts across the front of the pan, which is why the turbo pan is smaller than the N/A pan on the older N/A cars. This isn't the best pic, but you can see that my pan comes straight down and doesn't have that chunk cut out of it that turbo pans have to clear the header. (More recent N/A cars, I think from '05 or '06 on, have a header similar to the turbo header, so the newer N/A cars have the smaller oil pan, too.)

The cars run basically the same oil capacity (roughly 5qts, give or take a couple tenths depending on the year and model), despite the turbo pan being smaller. Thus, the oil level in the turbo pans is higher (closer to the crank). So, at the suggestion of Steve at Pacific Import Auto, I'm now running the older N/A oil pan with an STI dipstick, which is shorter than my original dipstick. The oil level in the pan is obviously still safe, since it's no closer to the crank than the turbo motors run from the factory. But since I have the bigger N/A pan, my oil capacity is a quart or two bigger. (I haven't done an oil change since PIA put the STI dipstick in, and I can't remember exactly what Steve told me the capacity is now; I think it's in the 6.5-7qt range).

So, if one can fit the older N/A oil pan on there, you could get some added capacity without splurging on one of the expensive aftermarket pans.

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Old 03-31-2010, 02:58 PM   #19
mick_the_ginge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waynoSTI View Post
Great info once again Mick! I love all your threads, thanks man. I'm getting the accusump for my car, already have the ARC pan with killerB pickup.
What do you suggest the 3qt with the 50psi valve going to the oil cooler or...
For the fastest charge and discharge you really want to run a manual valve. If you run the EPC with the oil pressure sensor you should run the higher one as you suggested.

I run the 3QT high pressure version.

If you have an oil cooler you can plumb it into that, (my recommendation) just make sure you install a check valve to stop backflow into the stock oil pump.

Accusump/Canton also have a range of sandwich adapters of you want to go that route. Never used them, can't comment.

Or plumb it into the block oil galley which I did but oil can flow both ways meaning you will feed the bearings and the oil pump. On my setup of course this is not an issue and the stock oil pump is blocked off. For this reason I recommend plumbing the accusump into an oil cooler with check valve. See fig 2 in this doc : http://www.accusump.com/accusump.pdf/instructions.pdf
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Old 03-31-2010, 03:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick_the_ginge View Post
For the fastest charge and discharge you really want to run a manual valve. If you run the EPC with the oil pressure sensor you should run the higher one as you suggested.

I run the 3QT high pressure version.

If you have an oil cooler you can plumb it into that, (my recommendation) just make sure you install a check valve to stop backflow into the stock oil pump.

Accusump/Canton also have a range of sandwich adapters of you want to go that route. Never used them, can't comment.

Or plumb it into the block oil galley which I did but oil can flow both ways meaning you will feed the bearings and the oil pump. On my setup of course this is not an issue and the stock oil pump is blocked off. For this reason I recommend plumbing the accusump into an oil cooler with check valve. See fig 2 in this doc : http://www.accusump.com/accusump.pdf/instructions.pdf
Thx Mick! That answers everything!
Another thing i wanted to ask was how do how you like the evans coolant? Are you still running it? I have a sleeved 2.6L block and was wondering if i need to run that coolant as well? Did you have to run a no pressurized rad cap?

thx again
wayne
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Old 03-31-2010, 05:20 PM   #21
mick_the_ginge
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I'm running the Evans NPG-R, Racing non-water based coolant. http://www.evanscooling.com/npg-r/ Stock water pump, STi high pressure rad caps but you HAVE to run a larger expansion tank as the stuff expands more than water.

Working for me.
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Old 05-04-2010, 10:02 AM   #22
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I've a doubt about accusump....
When the pickup isn't getting any oil, actually the pump suck air, that will go into the oil galleries, with no way to escape. In this moment we have a drop of pressure. When the pickup get oil, the pump compress the bubble of air, and immediatly the pressure build up.

While the accusump mantain the pressure in case of sudden drop, actually it can't do nothing with the bubble of air that will go into the galleries.... I've read in one of my technical literatures (as now i can't remember on what book, i'm reading a lot on engines) than a a part of the damage it's cause by the pressure drop, but another part is caused by the burst of air that can exit from one bearing (leaving it dry, and also dropping the pressure a second time, due to the less density of the air). So the accusump will not cover 100% of the problem.
The solution will be an apollo tank (something like a swirl pot) that it's used in uk for catheram cars. It deareate the oil, but can't backup in case of a drop in oil pressure...
What you think about?
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