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Old 07-01-2002, 07:57 PM   #1
Mancini
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Post Mild vs. Spicy

My question is...what do you all think would be a better suggestion for upgrading a 98 RS...Cobb mild cam and cylinder head or Cobb spicy cam, cylinder head, and high lift valvetrain package.

No worries about the cai, header, exhaust, or suspension, they'll be taken care of Basically I want it to be a solid street drivable car but be able to have some fun autox and rallyx or just playin in the mountains with some solid power.

Not too much comparison on the boards about the two different setups so any help from people with these setups would be appreciated! Thanks!

Brian
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Old 07-01-2002, 08:21 PM   #2
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From what I've read, if you want streetability as a high priority don't go with the Spicey Cams. Those are made for racing and that's their only design criteria.

Even with the mild cams and heads you should be having a pretty fast car (Cobb's Stage3 should get you in the WRX ballpark, a little less most likely but not too far off).
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Old 07-01-2002, 10:50 PM   #3
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I also heard there is no way in hell you'd pass emission with Spicy cams. The street cams haven't been tested for emissions yet, so those may or may not be any better.
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Old 07-01-2002, 11:22 PM   #4
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Word is you need to raise your redline to use the spicy cam properly. Expect to spend at least another $800 to do so. Emissions concerns are previously stated with the spicy, and of course they will throw a CE light with the stock ecu.
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Old 07-02-2002, 01:11 AM   #5
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Get this. My friend and I did two test runs against each other. He had the spicy cams and Cobb's head work and I had the stage I cams only. We where cruizing about 30 mph in 4th gear and we both punch it to about 90 and at first I had pulled about 1.5 cars in front of him. That gap closed to about half a car at 90. Go figure.
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Old 07-02-2002, 01:30 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by t.rod
Get this. My friend and I did two test runs against each other. He had the spicy cams and Cobb's head work and I had the stage I cams only. We where cruizing about 30 mph in 4th gear and we both punch it to about 90 and at first I had pulled about 1.5 cars in front of him. That gap closed to about half a car at 90. Go figure.
Well, His car was modded for top end (less torque) where as your cams have a different profile (for more torque than the spicy cams).

Make sense?

-justin
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:09 AM   #7
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t-rod: that's some interesting stuff.

My plan is to do this right either way I go, so reprogramming the ECU is probably gonna happen if I go with the spicy stuff. And I'm already shelling out close to 4k what's another 800, haha. Wallet is already hurtin

Emissions really aren't a concern...thank you active duty service So that's not a major consideration for me.

I'm just trying to get a feel for performance differences between the two.

Anyone with a full stage one setup do any comparisons or have any thoughts???
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Old 07-02-2002, 06:18 AM   #8
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t-rod: Do you remember what is your RPM at 90mph in 4th gear.

By the way t-rod as you propably know, to take the gap away at high speeds is much harder due the airdrag. Your friends car produces quite a bunch more power than yours at those speeds. Assuming your and your friends cars have the air drag coefficent (and mass and wheel/tire combination - these aren't major factors however).

Midwayman is propably right about the redline issue, which however doesn't mean that the spicys won't produce more horses with the stock redline. The spicy just have something to work on in the future.

If you race with the car you don't need the lower RPM's that much as you know. Get the spicy - the more you get the more you want.



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Old 07-02-2002, 07:51 AM   #9
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$4000 are you nuts? Buy a turbo. Or wait for the Rotrex Supercharger kit to be produced by Templer. Horsepower = $ ratio doesn't even compare.

$4000(Heads and Cams) = 210hp
or
$4000(Turbo or Supercharger) = 240-250hp+

Brad
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Old 07-02-2002, 08:55 AM   #10
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The thing about turbo or supercharging is that I've heard the Phase I is a weaker build than the phase II and without proper internal strenghtening it is basically a timebomb. Anyone had luck with a 98???

As of now I'm thinking the mild might be a better option cause I still could run a small turbo or sc if I decided I need more power (and wanna risk it)...unless someone with spicy can convince me otherwise...
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Old 07-02-2002, 10:04 AM   #11
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You could always do the turbo heads/cams now in prep for a turbo. The car won't run all that great (compared to the N/A combos) but it will definately run better than with just bolt ons. The street cams, intake, header, pulley(s) will run with low milage stock WRX's all day long (I speak from experience). Put >10k mi on the WRX engine and things start to change (or add intake and cat-back ). IF you're going to go N/A and want good strong power, go with the stage II package and ECU. If you want absolute power, get a turbo/sc, fuel pump, injectors, ecu, pistons, rods, rrfpr.
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Old 07-02-2002, 02:27 PM   #12
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There are no driveability issues with the spicy cams (yes there is a drop in torque below 3000 RPM, but when you want power, you are in the "meat" of what power is available during shifts) The spicy cams are NOT strictly race cam shafts. (Cobb makes RACE ONLY camshafts with high lift that requires the valve spring package, the Spicy (Club Racer) cams do not).

The Spicy cams pull harder and harder all the way to the stock redline, and they will do more with a higher redline (as was already said). They are very fun to drive because of this. The idle is different. People who say it is rough have never owned a hard core cammed V8 that lopes and sputters. THat is a rough idle, the spicy cams are not like that at all. Idles fine.

The Spicy cams throw misfire codes.

If you decide to get the valve spring package, plan on raising the redline, because you will want to see what the car will do, and your HP will continue to grow as you raise the RPM.

As far as a car with mild cams being faster. Your test demonstrated more area under the curve. Mainly due to the loss of torque under 3000 RPM, and mostly stock torque untill 4000 RPM. If you did that same test in 3rd, 40 through 87 MPH (or when ever 3rd ends) the out come would have been your friend walking away from you.

What you do is up to you, but if your going to stay NA, get a NA cam. The mild cam is just the stock cam that has been made more effecient, so it just pumps up the stock torque curve throughout the rev range. THe spicy cams shif the torque curve up about 800 RPM, where you would spend the most time when you are accelerating hard. If you are going under 50 MPH, you will probably be better off downshifting to pass, where as the mild cams will just pass. The mild cams are a slightly better version of the car you have, while the spicy cams will change it to a car that will like to be driven hard. If/when the spicy cams are installed you have to keep an eye on the redlin because it comes up significently quicker in 1st and 2nd.

If you think that you will run turbo in the future, your car will run fine with the mild (na OR turbo) and stage 2 heads (the porting will pull your torque up a bit, but will not hurt overall performance). While teh stage 2 heads are designed for the spicy camshafts, they will work fine with the mild camshafts, and will work well with a turbo. However, porting and polishing for a turbo isn't that worthwhile unless you are looking for the last few HP or are running over 10 PSI. If you have money to spend, fine, but your heads are not pathetic. It is not necessary, like a better flowing over stock muffler is.

Get the Mild cams because you want them, not because of misinformation about the Spicy cams.


cheeRS,

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Old 07-02-2002, 02:45 PM   #13
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Section8, nicely put! My personal opinion is this... I've driven both cams on to fairly equally modded cars (my car has more exhaust work done). The spicey cams will leave you begging for more if the redline is not raised. Under 3k they are fairly gutless, but after that HOLD ON! I've got the street cams in my car and I chose them because I don't intend on up'ing the redline. Very satisfied, power down low when you need it, perfect for auto/rally cross. If you do the heads you'll get a better experience from both cams but without the increased redline the spicey cams just don't make sense to me. Like section8 said, buy the street cams because you want them.
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:05 PM   #14
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I'm talking about 240-260hp at 5-7psi with turbo or supercharger and fuel management. It is a major missconception that the Phase-I engine is too weak to handle Forced Induction. I think a more correct statement would be "No engine can handle a boost happy driver whos motto is More boost less engine management and planning."


If it were me, (I realize this is your money), I would scrap the cam and head idea and swap a JDM EJ20turbo motor and tranny in and make more horsepower then stock WRX and mildly turboed EJ2.5 owners. Yes it can be done for $4000 if you can do some of the work yourself. With the previous aside a turboed Phase I EJ25 will make way more usable power then a high strung NA EJ25 with heads and hi perf cams.

If you the Phase I's shortblock internals would be stressed by adding a small amount of boost think about what would happen when you ask it to spin about 1500rpms faster. IIRC the main cause of Phase-I failures was a misplacement of the crank bearing? Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't spinning the crank faster cause more damage then simply adding more pressure?

Brad
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:09 PM   #15
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Phase I EJ25 Turboed or Supercharged to 5-7psi
UniChip or SAFC and Knock Link should run smoothly.
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:17 PM   #16
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Yes, raising the redline does stress the rod's more then moderate boost. The increased acceleration of the piston/rod assembly after TDC will stress it. As shiv states:

Quote:
4. Increased power output will put excessive stress on engine's internals and destroying them.

-- In most situations, this is not true. Power loads aren't very stressful in the big scheme of things. In fact, the load a rod goes through just after TDC is far more stressful than the load caused by engine output. This is why raising maximum engine speeds can be far more stressful to an engine than introducing boost. Rule of thumb: You can add boost but leave the redline where it is.
A lot of the people on hear report blown headgaskets as the major problem with turbo/sc 98 ej25. There are also people that report blown head gaskets on n/a engines.


-Chav

Last edited by Chav; 07-02-2002 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:22 PM   #17
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a high revving na engine will put just as much stress on an engine as will a turbo or supercharger. I am with MY992.5gt on this one. \

I would get new rods and pistons, o-ring the block, get injectors and a fuel pump and save up for the supercharger. then, just get some engine management and tune it . 5-6psi on a mildly built rs motor will be crazy fast with lots of torque.

just my 2 cent's
-aaron
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:24 PM   #18
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EJ30 TT
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:28 PM   #19
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scubaracer: That is true for 99+ ej25s, but Mancini has a 98 and therefore has to worry about his headgaskets.

-Chav
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Old 07-02-2002, 03:40 PM   #20
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I never said anything about headgaskets?
I did mention getting the block o-ringed. I believe all the 98/99 turbo guys did this to solve the blowing headgaskets problem. am I wrong?

any input is welcome
-aaron
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Old 07-02-2002, 04:29 PM   #21
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If the problem is weak headgaskets O-Ringing is a good idea. However if the problem is something going really wrong internally then O-Ringing will allow more damage to be done rather then simply blowing the head gasket and shutting things down.

Boy - My dream is a turbo 3.3litre SVX motor. At 4-5 psi and no management at all (Not even an safc) will make 310hp. Imagine a properly managed 9psi Aerocharger turbo setup that is at full boost by 2200rpm Sorry but I would blow all of you away!!

Brad
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Old 07-02-2002, 04:59 PM   #22
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Wow, well that's quite a bit of info. I think you guys might have convinced me away from the spicy setup cause that would really limit my power output, where as with street setup I'll still have options.

I guess the real question is heads or no heads and save the money for SC or Turbo setup. By the way how much do you guys think it would cost to have a partially built phase one, say to hold 5psi? And what kinda CR are we looking at with new pistons. The only info I could find through cobb was a fully built short block (way to expensive and definate overkill for what I'm looking for).

I've thought about an EJ20 swap, but I like the characteristics of the EJ25 and would like to keep a nice torquey setup.

Thanks for all the replies, I appeciate it!!!
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Old 07-02-2002, 05:12 PM   #23
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You've got other options other than Cobb. You could send the cams out to someone like Paeco, or you could find a local V8 shop to do a mild port and polish on the heads. I've got a shop here in town that quoted me $500 for both heads! A low boost turbo setup can be done relatively inexpensively as well IF you're willing to do a lot of looking and alot of work yourself. You can get a junkyard turbo for <$300 and a custom manifold from a local exhaust shop should cost <$300 as well. The SVX FPR works well and Supra and RX-7 fuel pumps have been used before. As for an intercooler, the Saab ICs are a pretty common substitute for a TMIC. I guess it all depends on your goal for the car, ultimate power or fun daily driver/weekend warrior.

MY99-GT, The new EJ30 is only 0.8" longer than the EJ25, and lighter than the SVX motor. Add a couple of TD04's or GT25's and look out.
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Old 07-02-2002, 06:38 PM   #24
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yeah fun daily driver and weekend warrior is definately the route for me. Ultimate power is just way to expensive, considering all the drive train components that would need upgrading as with a full rebuild...so I guess low boost turbo setup would be pretty sweet, something that keeps the spirit of the ej25 would definately be good. Come on line and maybe full boost by 3000 rpm.

I'll have to look into doin the turbo a little more..but I think the decision is made...street cams for now without a head. I'll switch over to the turbo forum for some more info on a 98RS-T setup. See if it's within me and my buddies ability.

Thanks for all the help.

Brian
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Old 07-03-2002, 12:21 AM   #25
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Yup, you'll get a lot of help in AFI. A couple 98 RS-T's in there too.

-Chav
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