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Old 06-26-2011, 04:55 AM   #1
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F10 M5 Reported to Lap Nurburgring in 7:55
According to fastestlaps.com the new M5 in the hands of a BMW factory driver clocked in a nice score as seen below:

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Old 06-26-2011, 10:07 AM   #2
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So the CTS-V is no longer tha boss. Up your pipe GM.
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Old 06-26-2011, 11:57 AM   #3
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So what. I t tied the 2011 STI's "Unofficial" run of 7.55 flat. Given that the M5 makes 250 Horespower MORE than the prepped STI that ran the same time, the M5 run isnt that impressive. The STI was a ringer, but it used all off the Shelf Subaru parts, a combination of US and japan spec parts, excluding the safety equipment like the rollcage and underbody panels all of wich added weight.

I doubt the M5 was completely factory tune either

I'd still buy the CTS-V over the BMW too.
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Old 06-26-2011, 02:45 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by prodigy888 View Post
So what. I t tied the 2011 STI's "Unofficial" run of 7.55 flat. Given that the M5 makes 250 Horespower MORE than the prepped STI that ran the same time, the M5 run isnt that impressive. The STI was a ringer, but it used all off the Shelf Subaru parts, a combination of US and japan spec parts, excluding the safety equipment like the rollcage and underbody panels all of wich added weight.

I doubt the M5 was completely factory tune either

I'd still buy the CTS-V over the BMW too.
And this is why Ring times are stupid.
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Old 06-26-2011, 02:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by prodigy888 View Post
So what. I t tied the 2011 STI's "Unofficial" run of 7.55 flat. Given that the M5 makes 250 Horespower MORE than the prepped STI that ran the same time, the M5 run isnt that impressive. The STI was a ringer, but it used all off the Shelf Subaru parts, a combination of US and japan spec parts, excluding the safety equipment like the rollcage and underbody panels all of wich added weight.

I doubt the M5 was completely factory tune either

I'd still buy the CTS-V over the BMW too.
Word. I'm not sure which one I'd take, but probably the M5. If it still had the old NA V10 in there I'd take the Cadillac. But that 4.4l TT V8 will be able to make some insane power with just a tune and bolt ons.... Just watch

That said, I'd take a 550i instead, just because it's more comfortable and still has the TT 4.4 in it
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Old 06-26-2011, 04:56 PM   #6
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And this is why Ring times are stupid.
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Old 06-26-2011, 06:25 PM   #7
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Word. I'm not sure which one I'd take, but probably the M5. If it still had the old NA V10 in there I'd take the Cadillac. But that 4.4l TT V8 will be able to make some insane power with just a tune and bolt ons.... Just watch

That said, I'd take a 550i instead, just because it's more comfortable and still has the TT 4.4 in it

Agreed. It would be a tough decision between the two. But the Price, a very blah interior and I would expect maintenace nightmares of the twin turbo BMW, might ultimately sway me towards the Supercharged CTS-V.

No doubt that mods could further enhance the acceleration of the BMW, but the CTS-V can be modded also;more boost from a simply pulley swap on the supercharger for example. Plus GM could still drop in the Top Dog Corvette motor if they wanted to! BMW seems to be throwing everything they can at the M5 just to keep up.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:30 PM   #8
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What maintenance issues are you referring to? The N54/55 3.0 I6 twin/single turbo engines are actually very reliable, good engines. They have no maintenance issues from what I understand actually. The only problems they had were from bad high pressure fuel pumps that were made by one manufacturer. They have since switched to another company and fixed that issue. The only other thing was rattling diverter valves, which the dealer replaced or is just upgraded to aftermarket ones which are much better than oem.

I'd imagine the 4.4 would be just as good if not better in regards of stoutness compared to the N54 (forged crank/rods/pistons) which has made mid 600 whp with a custom turbo kit and a standalone running a second set of injectors on a stock long block.

At least you would hope so with that much money spent


As for the CTSV, the LSA is a great engine. It's not forged, but it can make an easy 550-600whp without issue.... Much more than that (even on a perfect tune) and you're on borrowed time. The long block is cheap to build though ($1500 for a forged pistons/rods) and the heads/cam swap with any LS style engine will fit on there (good aftermarket ones are $1500-2500). The blower doesn't bolt up to a few of the cylinder heads, but all the heads fit the block. It wouldn't take much to get the LSAs TVS 1900 rotors to be out of their efficiency range a need a new blower. Just a small pulley/good FI cam/full exhaust and you're pretty much done with the stock blower. Nothing a TVS2300 (LS9 and LSA blowers just use rotors, different housings. LS9 is 2300, LSA is 1900) or a custom mounted KB/whipple wouldn't fix
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Old 06-26-2011, 10:33 PM   #9
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What maintenance issues are you referring to? The N54/55 3.0 I6 twin/single turbo engines are actually very reliable, good engines. They have no maintenance issues from what I understand actually. The only problems they had were from bad high pressure fuel pumps that were made by one manufacturer. They have since switched to another company and fixed that issue. The only other thing was rattling diverter valves, which the dealer replaced or is just upgraded to aftermarket ones which are much better than oem.

I'd imagine the 4.4 would be just as good if not better in regards of stoutness compared to the N54 (forged crank/rods/pistons) which has made mid 600 whp with a custom turbo kit and a standalone running a second set of injectors on a stock long block.

At least you would hope so with that much money spent


As for the CTSV, the LSA is a great engine. It's not forged, but it can make an easy 550-600whp without issue.... Much more than that (even on a perfect tune) and you're on borrowed time. The long block is cheap to build though ($1500 for a forged pistons/rods) and the heads/cam swap with any LS style engine will fit on there (good aftermarket ones are $1500-2500). The blower doesn't bolt up to a few of the cylinder heads, but all the heads fit the block. It wouldn't take much to get the LSAs TVS 1900 rotors to be out of their efficiency range a need a new blower. Just a small pulley/good FI cam/full exhaust and you're pretty much done with the stock blower. Nothing a TVS2300 (LS9 and LSA blowers just use rotors, different housings. LS9 is 2300, LSA is 1900) or a custom mounted KB/whipple wouldn't fix

Twin turbos with engine oil circulating through them?? I think would require more frequent oil changes than the supercharged Caddy.Correct me If I am wrong but I dont think the supercharger is cooled with engine oil? The twin turbo might consume more oil once the miles add up as well especially if you up the boost and turbo seals age. Superchargers dont have that issue. A lot more extra heat under the hood with twin hairdryers too so maybe more prone to heat soak.

You really only have the extra Belt/s on a supercharged engine.
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Old 06-26-2011, 10:56 PM   #10
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The BMW turbo cars actually go for 12k between oil changes (only because BMW is paying for them) but they won't require any more frequent of an oil change versus the LSA. GM LS series V8s actually can eat quite a bit of oil. GM mailed out a letter saying it is "normal" for my LS2 to consume 1qt of oil in 500 miles if I bring the RPMs up to 3,000+ (not even WOT). The LSA is essentially the exact same engine (larger bore, very slightly different block) as the LS2, so you can bet they will burn a little oil when driven hard.

I'm pretty positive all PD blowers have their own oil supply (internal) but there's probably one somewhere tied into the engine.. As far as cooling goes, the intercooler (in-between blower and engine) either run off their own coolant supply with a electric pump or are tied into the engine cooling system.

As far as heat soak goes, no intercooled turbo setup will ever heat soak as much as a PD blower planted on top of the engine will.

Also, with PD blowers the bearings will only last so many miles. It will be interesting to see what happens to the ZR1 and CTSVs as time goes by. The almost exact blower setups (TVS1900/2300) that are put on aftermarket onto LS powered vehicles seem to only make it to about 30,000 miles before they start to make noise. Some make it less, some make it more. Take that with a grain of salt though, because there are many GTPs that made it 100-200k without replacing the bearings... But not all of them. But once the bearings start to get play you get either: rotor on rotor contact, or worse, rotor on casing contact. If it's just rotor on rotor it can be fixed, but rotor on case needs a new blower.

Between the two, I'd pick the turbo setup BMW has going. The new single turbo twin scroll one is even better (spools at 1500rpm too). I wouldn't say one is more reliable/durable over the other though. They are both good performers.
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:36 AM   #11
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The BMW turbo cars actually go for 12k between oil changes (only because BMW is paying for them) but they won't require any more frequent of an oil change versus the LSA. GM LS series V8s actually can eat quite a bit of oil. GM mailed out a letter saying it is "normal" for my LS2 to consume 1qt of oil in 500 miles if I bring the RPMs up to 3,000+ (not even WOT). The LSA is essentially the exact same engine (larger bore, very slightly different block) as the LS2, so you can bet they will burn a little oil when driven hard.

I'm pretty positive all PD blowers have their own oil supply (internal) but there's probably one somewhere tied into the engine.. As far as cooling goes, the intercooler (in-between blower and engine) either run off their own coolant supply with a electric pump or are tied into the engine cooling system.

As far as heat soak goes, no intercooled turbo setup will ever heat soak as much as a PD blower planted on top of the engine will.

Also, with PD blowers the bearings will only last so many miles. It will be interesting to see what happens to the ZR1 and CTSVs as time goes by. The almost exact blower setups (TVS1900/2300) that are put on aftermarket onto LS powered vehicles seem to only make it to about 30,000 miles before they start to make noise. Some make it less, some make it more. Take that with a grain of salt though, because there are many GTPs that made it 100-200k without replacing the bearings... But not all of them. But once the bearings start to get play you get either: rotor on rotor contact, or worse, rotor on casing contact. If it's just rotor on rotor it can be fixed, but rotor on case needs a new blower.

Between the two, I'd pick the turbo setup BMW has going. The new single turbo twin scroll one is even better (spools at 1500rpm too). I wouldn't say one is more reliable/durable over the other though. They are both good performers.

Nice write up, thanks.

The way I drive my cars though I could never go 12K between oil changes. As it is I bring my STI to the dealer for them but I usually bring it in 1000 miles before the indicated mileage on the little sticker they put on the windshield. It stays at the full mark, never noticed any oil usage at all.
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:59 AM   #12
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Yeah, it's pretty retarded of BMW to do that. On a brand spanking new car they tell you to come back next year or 12,000 miles for the oil change. Anyone that's not just driving a BMW to have one, ends up changing the oil at normal intervals (5,000 miles). I believe they take a large amount of oil too, something like 7.1qt if I remember correctly. You can see how that would add up fast for BMW giving out free full synthetic oil if they changed it any sooner. It will also be interesting to see if the 12k interval has any negative effects on the 35i vehicles as time goes by.

As for bringing your STI in 1,000 miles early, you aren't hurting anything but at the same time you're not really benefiting from doing it. It's more of peace of mind I guess. I change the oil in my GTO every 5,000 miles (only put 18k on it in three years) so the oil sits a while before changing. No issues with my car, engine runs great and I usually only have to add 1/2-1qt of oil between changes. I also romp on my car, and take it to 6600rpm quite a bit haha... At least I didn't get one of the horrible oil burners from the factory like others have.

PS: when you say it stays at the full mark, are you checking the dip stick when the engine is fully at operating temperature, or cold? If the dip stick reads full when cold, the dealer is over filling your pan unfortunately it's not hard for jiffy lube type "mechanics" to get into a dealerships garage, they are just put on oil change duty. I've seen some stupid stuff come into the small shop I worked at from dealers.

That said, ALWAYS double check oil changes done anywhere. I never trust anyone to do my oil changes, ever. Over filled/under filled pans can toast the engine. It only takes a second to check the dip stick after an oil change.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:28 AM   #13
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It only takes a second to check the dip stick after an oil change.
Yep, BMW's no-dipstick policy is retarded - though it does highlight the car-intelligence of it's major demographic.

7:55 is an insane time for a 4-door likely around 4.3K lbs. It will once again be the ultimate highway car. Can't wait to see how it feels in town, and on some tighter roads. The E60 is/was such a dichotomy that it is almost annoying to DD - maybe this one will fill in the gap.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:44 AM   #14
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There's a way to check the oil level in cars without a dip stick. I remember having to do it once, you ended up needing a "special tool" but we used a metal coat hanger you measure how high the oil came up on the rod after it hits the bottom of the pan and that will tell you how full it is.
Edit: now that I think about it more, maybe that was to check the tranny fluid level in a charger

BMW wants only BMW to service their cars. To do a proper 4 wheel alignment on one, they are supposed to add weights to the seats/trunk. No one has that stuff besides BMW. So if you had a BMW, and got it aligned somewhere besides a BMW dealer it was incorrectly set (minus maybe the front toe)
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:03 PM   #15
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The BMW turbo cars actually go for 12k between oil changes (only because BMW is paying for them) but they won't require any more frequent of an oil change versus the LSA. GM LS series V8s actually can eat quite a bit of oil. GM mailed out a letter saying it is "normal" for my LS2 to consume 1qt of oil in 500 miles if I bring the RPMs up to 3,000+ (not even WOT)
I used to think that. However I changed the oil on my M3 myself at half their 15k interval, and did an oil analysis.

-I drive HARD. Try to redline several times on each drive, where possible. I don't baby it nearly as much as subaru with cold oil, since redline is dynamic already.
-Oil was changed 200 miles early for break-in, 1000 vs 1200 miles. (stupid dealership).
-Lost no more than a half quart in ~7600 miles
-Oil was still golden brown/translucent even at 7600 miles.
-Oil analysis says TBN is 4.3, which is excellent - plenty of additive life left.
-Engine metals (wear) was higher than normal, but I attribute this to the stupid dealership changing the oil before break-in was completed.
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:06 PM   #16
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Yeah, it's pretty retarded of BMW to do that. On a brand spanking new car they tell you to come back next year or 12,000 miles for the oil change. Anyone that's not just driving a BMW to have one, ends up changing the oil at normal intervals (5,000 miles).
There is a break-in oil change and break-in instructions for M cars, I don't know about regular cars. Transmission and engine oil is included.

I'm well aware of the drawbacks of BMW's and M's in particular, no need to exaggerate to make a point.
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Old 06-27-2011, 08:28 PM   #17
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On a slightly related note, the '12 M5 is the cover car for the Forza Motorsport 4 LE on the Xbox 360:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...75&postcount=1

I'm pretty excited to see this car in person. It's so far out of my price range, but I do enjoy seeing what tuners do with them.
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:38 PM   #18
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As for bringing your STI in 1,000 miles early, you aren't hurting anything but at the same time you're not really benefiting from doing it. It's more of peace of mind I guess. I change the oil in my GTO every 5,000 miles (only put 18k on it in three years) so the oil sits a while before changing. No issues with my car, engine runs great and I usually only have to add 1/2-1qt of oil between changes. I also romp on my car, and take it to 6600rpm quite a bit haha... At least I didn't get one of the horrible oil burners from the factory like others have.

PS: when you say it stays at the full mark, are you checking the dip stick when the engine is fully at operating temperature, or cold? If the dip stick reads full when cold, the dealer is over filling your pan unfortunately it's not hard for jiffy lube type "mechanics" to get into a dealerships garage, they are just put on oil change duty. I've seen some stupid stuff come into the small shop I worked at from dealers.

That said, ALWAYS double check oil changes done anywhere. I never trust anyone to do my oil changes, ever. Over filled/under filled pans can toast the engine. It only takes a second to check the dip stick after an oil change.
I check it everytime the dealer changes it. Drive it home let it sit for a bit then check it while its still warm. I go early for peace of mind otherwise I might end up procrastinating and go over the recommended interval. I am at 53,400 miles. 06 STI. They dont overfill it but they might be adding an additive like a viscosity improver possibly. The receipt says they use Exxon Superflo. I also make sure I ask that they have changed the crush washer on the drain bolt each time.

If it is using any oil it is a very small amount, under a 1/4 of a quart. between changes. My car is also 100% stock.

BMW owners also trade their cars in after 3 years quite commonly. I just couldnt for the life of me let an engine go 12,000 miles without an oil change. Never. Just the accumulation of moisture in the oil if it isnt driven very often and so on...on a twin turbo car I am suprised they didnt lower the mileage interval.
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Old 06-28-2011, 03:16 AM   #19
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Just the accumulation of moisture in the oil if it isnt driven very often and so on...on a twin turbo car I am suprised they didnt lower the mileage interval.
Don't start without letting the oil reach operating temp, problem solved. Just for comparison, the oil filter is at least twice the size of the Subaru one, perhaps much more in terms of surface area, and it also looks like there is a dielectric oil condition sensor in addition to the oil level sensor. I don't see a problem.
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Old 06-28-2011, 03:58 AM   #20
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Besides, BMW uses the same (and sometimes longer) maintenance intervals in countries where they don't offer free maintenance, as well as countries where the dealerships are owned by BMW, so if anything, they'd want to use shorter intervals to increase revenue. It's not 1960 any more, and it's pretty safe to assume that major manufacturers know what they're doing.
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Old 06-28-2011, 07:41 AM   #21
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you take it in for an oil change and then you check to make sure they filled it and replaced the crush washer? do you see where i'm going with this?

keep in mind, you are changing your oil based on a 3,000 mile schedule. i know you change it early, but 3,000 is your magic number. why is it important to change it then? why not 5,000 or 10,000 or even 500? with that in mind, 12,000 might not be such a bad time to change oil since cars and lubricants get better and more advanced all the time.
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Old 06-28-2011, 09:47 AM   #22
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IIRC BMW didn't start with the long intervals until they were paying for them. Besides, why would they tell one demographic one interval, and another a different one? Cell phones and the Internet would spread that fast, and BMW would be in a pickle.

I also know oils are very refined compared to even 20 years ago, that's not the point. I wouldn't wait 12k to change my oil, it just doesn't feel right to me. I'd end up changing it at around 5-7k personally, just because it would take me quite a while to get that many miles on the car (~1 year)

Legav05, have you sent out for another oil analysis since break in time? Kudos for doing so, it's a very good indicator of how long you really can go before issues start and the health of your engine.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:01 AM   #23
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Besides, BMW uses the same (and sometimes longer) maintenance intervals in countries where they don't offer free maintenance, as well as countries where the dealerships are owned by BMW, so if anything, they'd want to use shorter intervals to increase revenue. It's not 1960 any more, and it's pretty safe to assume that major manufacturers know what they're doing.
Right they use the same 12,000 mile interval on all their engines. A 560 Horsepower Twin Turbo V8 should not go 12,000 miles between oil changes, the oil is going to be subject to higher temperatures and pressures as compared to say a N/A 3.0 with 300 LESS horsepower. They can say that they dont need to be changed for 12,000 miles becuase it sounds good to a lazy consumer and makes the engine sound indestructable. But I sure as heck wouldnt wait that long on an engine like that, and neither would any knowledgeable performance enthusiast.

Maybe a good interval for soccer moms.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:40 AM   #24
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IIRC BMW didn't start with the long intervals until they were paying for them.
That's incorrect. BMW has been using extended oil change intervals since 1998.

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Besides, why would they tell one demographic one interval, and another a different one? Cell phones and the Internet would spread that fast, and BMW would be in a pickle.
Right, which means that saving money on free oil changes is not a factor. If they can only have one interval, it doesn't make sense to extend the intervals just because it allows them to save money in the US while losing revenue everywhere else.

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But I sure as heck wouldnt wait that long on an engine like that, and neither would any knowledgeable performance enthusiast.
Trouble is, 99% of those enthusiasts don't know the first thing about tribology and just regurgitate 'conventional wisdom'. All of these cars employ sophisticated algorithms that take into account the number of cold starts, temperatures, load, engine speed and a dozen of other factors, and they calculate the remaining oil life based on data from thousands of oil analyses.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:45 AM   #25
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FWIW, the 12,000 mile oil change intervals are simply what is "included" in the maintenance plan on a new BMW. Feel free to pay to have them change it at will. All my tech guys know the "enthusiast" drivers and recommend paying for 6K mile changes, between the free ones.
And yeah, it's simply becasue BMW doesn't want to pay for twice to 3x more oil changes.
But, if you have a brain, get it changed earlier.
Also, it's 12K or 1yr, whatever comes first is free. For my first change, it was the 1yr mark.
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