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Old 02-07-2014, 04:05 PM   #126
AdamBOMB_STi
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Finally getting off my butt and gathering parts to get my motor back together! Sponsors welcomed! lol
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:34 PM   #127
rexworx
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I just wanted to give a little update while this thread is back from the dead. My build has about 21,000 miles on it. Still running strong. Knocks on wood...

04 sti single avcs built EJ257 "04 forester xt"
Mains .0015", Rods .0018" Edited as I missed a zero 0"
Castrol GTX 10w-40 non synthetic
11mm ported with 3 shims total
Oil Galley porting and cleaned up returns to pan
AEM digital oil pressure gauge 0-150psi Sensor placed in the oil galley plug next to the PCV bung/coolant crossover pipe
95-101psi Cold startup @ idle 1500rpm
22-30psi hot idle @ 850rpm
40-45psi hot @ 1500rpm
55-70psi hot @ 2000-6000rpm
70+psi hot @ 7000+rpm.

Id like to see if swapping in a ported shimmed 10mm pump might give me more oil pressure in the higher rpm range.

I know it would help if I had a oil temp gauge so I could be more specific with my readings. Thats next on my gauge list...

Last edited by rexworx; 01-02-2016 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 02-08-2014, 09:37 PM   #128
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70psi sounds a little low at that rpm range. I would be shooting for at least 80-90 as when things get really hot the pressure can drop 10-20psi easily
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Old 02-08-2014, 10:17 PM   #129
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What oil are you guys running?
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:57 AM   #130
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M1 15w50
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Old 02-09-2014, 01:11 AM   #131
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Sweet. I usually run valvoline vr1 20w50
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Old 02-12-2014, 08:51 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcoolaid View Post
70psi sounds a little low at that rpm range. I would be shooting for at least 80-90 as when things get really hot the pressure can drop 10-20psi easily
I agree. I see no change when the oil is "really hot" though. I also admit that I havent had the car on the tract for 20-30 minutes either. just some autox etc. not near the same...

Last edited by rexworx; 02-12-2014 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:48 PM   #133
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Default My take on pump shimming

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Also, you should NOT be just throwing shims in based on your "gut" feeling and "design". You need to measure the spring pressure and adjust shims as necessary to meet the spec. The exact same way you would test a valve spring... There IS a reason some OEM factory pumps come with no shims, one shim, two shims, and etc.
I agree. Even when you get a new pump there are different manufacturers, different castings, different tolerances and human error that comes into play.
Spring pressure should be measured. I haven't heard a single person mention compressed, installed length and/or a spring pressure. Nor have I heard anything but "stock shim" mentioned. I'm guessing they have a number of combinations of shims to choose from when doing assembly and that someone is doing QC to maintain consistent results. I'm hearing people say that it does matter whether you add one or two shims. This means that +/- a half-thickness shim might be best.

Since this thread is titled oil galley porting I'd like to ask a question related to oil galleries. Is there an alternate place I could take oil out of the engine? Also, where could I return it? I'm trying to get away from oil lines around the headers. I already use an external filter, cooler and Accusump. Is it possible to block off the oil filter ports and route it somewhere else? I'm up for drilling and tapping, machining or welding to accomplish this.

Last edited by Scargod; 04-07-2016 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 01-02-2016, 09:49 AM   #134
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Another update. I have about 65,000 miles on the engine. I DDd it for a few years but I have a 11 hatch for DD use now. I have done oil tests with Blackstone labs. All wear metals seem great. I will admit I have beaten the snot out of this engine. Im rather happy with the results so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
I just wanted to give a little update while this thread is back from the dead. My build has about 21,000 miles on it. Still running strong. Knocks on wood...

04 sti single avcs built EJ257 "04 forester xt"
Mains .0015", Rods .0018" "Edited as I missed a zero"
Castrol GTX 10w-40 non synthetic
11mm ported with 3 shims total
Oil Galley porting and cleaned up returns to pan
AEM digital oil pressure gauge 0-150psi Sensor placed in the oil galley plug next to the PCV bung/coolant crossover pipe
95-101psi Cold startup @ idle 1500rpm
22-30psi hot idle @ 850rpm
40-45psi hot @ 1500rpm
55-70psi hot @ 2000-6000rpm
70+psi hot @ 7000+rpm.

Id like to see if swapping in a ported shimmed 10mm pump might give me more oil pressure in the higher rpm range.

I know it would help if I had a oil temp gauge so I could be more specific with my readings. Thats next on my gauge list...

Last edited by rexworx; 01-02-2016 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 03-11-2016, 09:52 PM   #135
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Awesome!
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Old 03-15-2016, 06:23 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by fastblueufo View Post
Another oil mod is on the main bearing journals. I know with acl bearings the oil feed hole on #2 and #4 mains don't line up with the feed hole in the bearing. You can reshape the feed hole in the main to match the hole in the bearing. #1, #3, and #5 oil feed holes in the mains are slightly larger and line up pretty good. Plus there is the oil valley that carries oil to the other side of the bearing. The #2 and #4 bearings don't have this valley. On my ej22t block the hole in the main and the hole in the bearing were offset by as much as 1/3 the size of the hole in the bearing. I will post pics later today when I get home from work.
I noticed this too when I built my last motor (#3) I thought the new King Bearing were wrong ...I looked at my old bearings (ACL) and you could see the impression on the back of the bearing shell .So I "ported " the back of the bearing shell a bit so it lined up better . the two previous motor failed from bearing issues . I also am using a 11mm STI pump with one shim added . runs down the freeway at 82 psi using Rotella T-6 oil.

Last edited by wrx1392; 03-15-2016 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:59 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrx1392 View Post
I noticed this too when I built my last motor (#3) I thought the new King Bearing were wrong ...I looked at my old bearings (ALC) and you could see the impression on the back of the bearing shell .So I "ported " the back of the bearing shell a bit so it lined up better . the two previous motor failed from bearing issues . I also am using a 11mm STI pump with one shim added . runs down the freeway at 82 psi using Rotella T-6 oil.
Is this specific to EJ22 cases or which ones? A range of cases to be concerned about? I've had two EJ25* cases prepped recently, which means they sized the bearings to the cranks, and they never said anything about any mismatch or modding.
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Old 03-15-2016, 10:39 PM   #138
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mine is a 2003 2.0 EJ20 .I mean there is enough hole match to feed the bearings for a stock motor, but after having 2 motor go out ,one spun a bearing after 450 miles and the other went 30,000 before #2 & #4 fatigued bearings ...both times it was my fault ,but this time I just did not want to take any chances. maybe the factory does it that way to restrict the flow or a better word to meter the flow, in my bear package from King they had a picture of a "new" bearing that had way different shaped holes/slots for getting the oil up from the case. ill see if I can post a pic.
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Old 03-12-2017, 04:21 PM   #139
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Default EJ 25 Series oiling system design and modification notes

I am going to speak to the EJ25 engine because itís what I know. A lot will be applicable to other, earlier engines. I will make the caveat here and at the end that the enlargements Iíve done are untested for the moment. They do follow in the footsteps of much of what's been mentioned before in this and other threads on this subject.
The majority of passages and orifices in an EJ 25 case do not exceed 13mm inside diameter (ID). Almost all passages in the case halves are cast-in using tapered core pins. Passages from the oil pump to oil filter and the return are, at the maximum, 16mm and taper down to 12mm ID. Once oil reaches its highest point in the right-hand side of the case and branches off at 90į angles to the main oil galleys it is reduced to 12mm and tapers down to approximately 8mm at the end of the galleys. As the runners go from the left and right galleys to the heads they taper from 12mm to 7mm.
The single oil feed into the headís galleys is 6mm ID. Internally the headís galleys are drilled to 8mm ID. The external feed tubes for the AVCS Control Valve is 6.5mm ID (8mm OD). There is a significant reduction to 2 mm ID at the Right, rear head banjo (where oil comes out of the head and through the tube terminating in a -4AN male flare fitting for feeding the turbo and the AVCS, if you have the late model heads and it has this type of tube.

Other sizes of importance and summary:
Oil Pump feed to filter: tapered from 16mm to 12mm ID
Oil filter to upper galleys: this passage tapers from 12mm to 14mm ID and reduces down to 10mm as it transitions horizontally to the left side of the case.
Left side case oil galley only goes half way to the rear of the case (tapers from 13mm to 8mm ID)
Right side case oil galley (tapers from 13mm to 8mm ID, from each end)
Turbo CHRA (bearing cartridge) Oil Feed (late model heads): reduction to 2mm ID
Note: on many turbos there is another reduced ID orifice fitting to which you connect the SS braided hose.
Right Head Oil Feed Line (tapers from 12mm to 7mm ID)
Left Head Oil Feed Line (tapers from 12mm to 7mm ID)
Heads entrance for oil: 6mm ID (drilled passage)
#5 Main bearing and rear thrust bearing (6mm ID feeds #4 rod journal through crankshaft journal)
#4 Cylinder, rod bearing feed line (from #5 main/thrust bearing through crankshaft feeds only this main bearing)
#4 Main bearing feed line ID reduction! (cast-in, thin orifice reduces 6mm inside diameter to 3.5mm)
#3 Main bearing feed line reduces to 7mm (feeds #2 & #3 Cylinderís rod bearings through crankshaft journal)
#2 & #3 Cylinders, rod bearing feed lines (from #3 main bearing through crankshaft feeds only this main bearing)
#2 Main bearing feed line ID reduction! Feeds only this bearing (cast-in, thin orifice reduces 6mm ID to 3.5mm)
#1 Main bearing, with reduction to 5.5mm ID (feeds from/at beginning of Right Galley)
#1 Cylinder, Rod Bearing fed from 4.5mm ID #1 Main Journal through crankshaft journal)
Crankshaft main oil holes: 5.5mm ID
Summary: I eliminated the cast-in tapers in the galleys and passages. I made them 14.3mm (9/16Ē) on the right side galley. On the left galley I made it 14.3mm till I hit the feed for #2 Main Bearing. I reduced it to 13mm (1/2Ē) for the balance of the distance to the #3 Main Bearing runner. Feeds from the oil pump to the filter and back to the vertical runner up to the galleys were all enlarged to 14.3mm. I drilled the runners so they were a consistent to the journals but did not increase the minimum ID to the main journals.
All large passage bends were radiused and blended. The tapered feed runners to the heads were opened to 13mm. The receiving orifice in the head was radiused and tapered to be funnel-like.
I am not convinced that the #2 and #4 Main bearing orifices should be enlarged. I will leave them alone. That is what one experienced builder suggested.
I removed flash, steps and obstructions in the case and heads to ease oil return flow, as has been documented previously.
All this work was done with the express intent of running an 11 mm oil pump that is ported and shimmed to achieve 85PSI hot, with bearing clearances of Mains .0015Ē and Rods .002Ē.
I will use what has worked in the past for me and that is -10AN hose and fittings going to an external cooler and remote, oversized racing filter. I run a KB wet sump so I also use an Accusump.
Since -10AN is nominally .480ĒID or 12.2mm and galleys and primary passages reduce down to 8mm or 10mm in stock form, I feel I now have the hose and fittings as my bottleneck. -10AN has worked successfully for me in undrilled cases to 7,200 RPM and 395 AWDHP.
This latest full case mod is for an anticipated 8,000 RPM red line and up to 500 CHP or 400AWDHP. My pistons weight 530 grams (complete) and the Manley rods 592 grams. Together, this is 14% less than stock.
I canít see a problem with what Iím doing, but I am going bigger and doing a bit more than I see described or shown by others. I will again use the caveat that some of these enlargement mods are untested at this date.
*To quote hotrod on this forum: ďDetail work on the oil pump passages (and engine oil gallery passages) is how the high end racing engine builders keep adequate oil flow without jacking the oil pressure to the moon. Cosworth knows what their doing.Ē NASIOC


EJ25 Engine Oiling Diagram Key
1. Oil Filter
2. Oil Cooler or Heat Exchanger (has no functionality after engine is warm)
3. Oil Pump
4. Oil Strainer or Oil Pickup (in oil pan)
5. Intake Camshaft Oil Galley, drilled 8mm
6. Exhaust Camshaft Oil Galley, drilled 8mm
7. Right side Oil Galley (tapered from 13mm to 8mm from each end)
8. Left side Oil Galley (tapered from 13mm to 8mm)
9. Turbo CHRA (bearing cartridge) Oil Feed line (reduced to 2mm ID)
10. External Feed line, Right AVCS Control Valve (5mm max.)
11. External Feed line, Left AVCS Control Valve (5mm max.)
12. Right Head Oil Feed Line (tapered from 12mm to 7mm) Note: heads have 6mm drilled primary feed runner to the headís cam journal galleys.
13. Left Head Oil Feed Line (tapered from 12mm to 7mm) Note: heads have 6mm drilled primary feed runner to the headís cam journal galleys.
14. Filter screen in banjo bolt (locations vary per year and model)
15. #5 Main bearing and rear thrust bearing (6mm ID feeds #4 rod journal through crankshaft)
16. #4 Cylinder rod bearing feed line (from #5 main/thrust bearing through crankshaft)
17. #4 Main bearing oil feed line (feeds only this main bearing)
18. #4 Main bearing feed line diameter reduction (reduces to 3.5mm ID)
19. #2 Main bearing feed line reduces to 3.5mm ID (Fed by left galley and feeds only this bearing)
20. #3 Main bearing feed line reduces to 7mm (Fed by left galley and feeds #2 & #3 Rod bearings through crankshaft)
21. #3 Cylinder rod bearing, fed by #3 Main bearing
22. #2 Cylinder rod bearing, fed by #3 Main bearing
23. #1 Main bearing, with reduction to 5.5mm ID (feeds from beginning of Right Galley)
24. #1 Cylinder Rod Bearing (feeds from #1 Main Journal through crankshaft)
25. Galley plug with pressure sensor
26. Small galley plug (2X, hex head)
27. Large galley plug (2X, hex socket head)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg lubrication engine copy.jpg (100.9 KB, 203 views)
File Type: jpg front T collage sm.jpg (90.0 KB, 24 views)

Last edited by Scargod; 03-22-2017 at 10:36 AM. Reason: added collage of porting on front "T" of galley
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Old 03-12-2017, 10:05 PM   #140
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You data-logging oil pressure yet? This in an STi or 818?
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:50 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
You data-logging oil pressure yet? This in an STi or 818?
This work I've documented is going towards an STi recently purchased, not my '08 track car. The 3MI Honey Badger style destroker engine for my 818R is not assembled yet so I may very well do these mods to it. I intend for it to be dry-sumped.

I am not data-logging in the STi track car. I am getting oil pressures from two different spots on the block and temperature and EGT. I am running the intelligent SPA dual gauges. I usually have a camera in the car to view the gauges. The 818 will have data logging.
BTW, I now have two cars with full KB parts on the bottom end.
I'm very interested in your thoughts. I know some are very guarded about sharing this kind of information.
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:34 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
This work I've documented is going towards an STi recently purchased, not my '08 track car.
Gotcha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
The 3MI Honey Badger style destroker engine for my 818R is not assembled yet so I may very well do these mods to it. I intend for it to be dry-sumped.
You dead set on that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
I am not data-logging in the STi track car. I am getting oil pressures from two different spots on the block and temperature and EGT. I am running the intelligent SPA dual gauges. I usually have a camera in the car to view the gauges. The 818 will have data logging.
The camera is good for post even review as it will pickup some things you won't in the heat of the moment. It's no replacement for a decent logging system, but I'm sure you're aware of that. That will pick up EVERY little thing, and may finally convince you to take that accusump off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
BTW, I now have two cars with full KB parts on the bottom end.
Always happy to hear a customer say enjoy and trust our products for not one, but two cars. Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
I'm very interested in your thoughts. I know some are very guarded about sharing this kind of information.
We do something similar on our race spec engines. I wouldn't say it's guarded information, but it is something most higher end engine builders will include in their higher dollar engines as part of the block machining and prep. When you're building an engine to a higher quality standard, this goes along with the many other parts and processes that just makes sense to perform.
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Old 03-14-2017, 08:28 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
The 3MI Honey Badger style destroker engine for my 818R is not assembled yet so I may very well do these mods to it. I intend for it to be dry-sumped.
You dead set on that?
What do you mean by that?

I do have a question. How do you remove the ball that seals off the passage to #5 main journal? Is it hardened? I've done so much grinding in the passages that I want to get it out.
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Old 03-14-2017, 11:03 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
The 3MI Honey Badger style destroker engine for my 818R is not assembled yet so I may very well do these mods to it. I intend for it to be dry-sumped.
You dead set on that?

KB doesn't think dry sump should be used unless it is a circle track car. Plain wet sump is fine for road course stuff.
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Old 03-14-2017, 12:00 PM   #145
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I sure hope he's right , at my low level of grip I have not seen an issue but if I was building a serious car with big tires and lots of downforce I think I would not think twice about going dry sump .


I did some work in the areas from part #4 , behind part#3 and above parts #1/2 in the above diagram

happy with the results

I also cleaned up the interface/mismatch in the oil return passages from the heads to block a bit and massaged the pumps hard corners
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:23 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
KB doesn't think dry sump should be used unless it is a circle track car. Plain wet sump is fine for road course stuff.
Not so. Chris said, in one thread, "Done correctly, the only time a dry sump is needed is in the most extreme cases of pure track prepped race cars, a level of which very few find thier way into the pages of these forums."
So time attack cars and others with slicks and aero can go over 1.5G's and need dry sump.
I have one track, NJMP's Lightning, which has a sustained turn for over ten seconds and if I don't have over a half tank of gas* it loses fuel pressure and falls on its face. I wonder what the oil's doing?

*No swirl-pot and before anti-slosh fuel foam was added.

Last edited by Scargod; 03-17-2017 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 03-17-2017, 05:05 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
Quote:
You dead set on that?
What do you mean by that?
Have you bought it already?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphi View Post
KB doesn't think dry sump should be used unless it is a circle track car. Plain wet sump is fine for road course stuff.
Yes and no. There are many factors when running these engines at real 'racecar' levels. Simple things, like routing the PCV plumbing wrong can be disastrous for the inexperienced. To date we've not seen a data log showing a drop in pressure with our full oiling arsenal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scargod View Post
Not so. Chris said, in one thread, "Done correctly, the only time a dry sump is needed is in the most extreme cases of pure track prepped race cars, a level of which very few find thier way into the pages of these forums."
So time attack cars and others with slicks and aero can go over 1.5G's and need dry sump.
That was likely from an older thread/post? Our oil control valve has definitely changed the effectiveness of the wet sump. Really what it comes down to is keeping more oil IN the engine, not in the venting system where it lower the level in the pan. We've had guys go from draining a full catch can after a session, to far less than a full can after a full weekend of racing. That's why I asked about your commitment to the dry sump, because I am always on the lookout for anyone pushing the limits of our oiling setup. If you are pushing +1.7Gs sustained, I'm looking for data logs and to offer a solution. 1.5Gs is no problem.
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Old 03-17-2017, 05:34 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
To date we've not seen a data log showing a drop in pressure with our full oiling arsenal.
I know its not a data log. But you can see it in the video.

I have the full killer b set up. Pan, pickup, and baffle.

EVERY big left hand turn oil pressure drops. This is just auto X with no aero. 275 ooold a6 tires.

Watch this video. The left guage in the center pod is the oil pressure.


Last edited by wantsti; 03-17-2017 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 03-18-2017, 12:09 PM   #149
Scargod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Have you bought it already?

Yes and no. There are many factors when running these engines at real 'racecar' levels. Simple things, like routing the PCV plumbing wrong can be disastrous for the inexperienced. To date we've not seen a data log showing a drop in pressure with our full oiling arsenal.

That was likely from an older thread/post? Our oil control valve has definitely changed the effectiveness of the wet sump. Really what it comes down to is keeping more oil IN the engine, not in the venting system where it lower the level in the pan. We've had guys go from draining a full catch can after a session, to far less than a full can after a full weekend of racing. That's why I asked about your commitment to the dry sump, because I am always on the lookout for anyone pushing the limits of our oiling setup. If you are pushing +1.7Gs sustained, I'm looking for data logs and to offer a solution. 1.5Gs is no problem.
No, not yet. I am still leaning towards the Dailey system.
It was an older post I quoted you from. I know from experience that there are many factors that can contribute to low oil pressure. I have always advocated letting the oil go back to the sump and not holding it in a tank.

I'd like to point out that I found these six different Subie Time Attack cars running dry sump:
Cosworth 12mm pump, Cosworth dry sump pump (2X)
Dailey system
Innovative Tuning custom dry sump oiling system with oil cooler
Element Tuning Dry Sump
ARE based...
These are just a few... and there are a number of 818's with aero running DS. Some say it has cured their engine failure issues.

Then there is me. I have a 3,000lb car capable of being competitive in ST2, with 285 tires and some aero. With KB pan and baffle, large external cooler, large external oil filter, 11mm pump, A/OS catch can and Accusump and it turns to 7,200 RPM. I got 70+ hours on my last engine and the bearings looked good enough to go for more. I've not had a bearing failure. Blackstone results were good. I was losing compression from two tight exhaust valves.
Two of my friends have upped their game and installed your oil control valve on top of your other products . One has just gone to an Accusump in addition to your valve.
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Old 03-18-2017, 12:15 PM   #150
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So I watched this vid a bunch of times. The jitteriness and reflections make for less than ideal observations, but correct me if I'm wrong here... and this is a generalization... Your oil pressure is lowest hard in a corner off the throttle. It starts coming back as you get on throttle and even more once straightened out.

So lets get a look under the hood. What's the routing for the crankcase and heads? What are you using for a separation device? I'll be a $5 it's setup related. I could be wrong. 99.2% of the time we do not recommend an OCV for auto-x because the forces/time/RPM is no sustained for long enough at a high enough level. Maybe this could be the exception? I typically don't even recommend our pan for recreational auto-x use, only for the more serious experienced drivers.

Definitely in for more details!
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