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Old 03-07-2013, 01:05 AM   #1726
53x12
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
We had an event at the dealership tonight and our district manager was kind enough to drive a pre pro to us for it since SOA likes to send us cars last and we haven't gotten our 14s yet. We had some customers that were waiting for this event to see the new Forester before deciding on what they were going to buy. They were signing papers on a Crosstrek as I was leaving.
Hey salesman, I'm not the one you need to be replying to.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:16 AM   #1727
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Hey salesman, I'm not the one you need to be replying to.

Oh. Sorry. I thought I did. I had read that, went to another page, then came back. Obviously hit yours with the quote instead of his.
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:59 PM   #1728
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That's what I've been saying.

The forester has more room, more HP, and pretty much the same price (yes, I know more options increases the cost of the Forester) but Base Forester vs Base (Premium) XV, and it's almost a no brainer. The Forester should knock it out. Which has me thinking that the Crosstrek should be $500 to $1000 lower in price. Just not seeing a case where they should be the same as they are.

What if they put the Forester 2.5 in the Crosstrek XV... would it see even better MPG or the same (drag limited?)

--kC
Are you seriously comparing the base forester to the Premium XV?? The Base Forester that doesn't have roof rails, weather package, fog lights, cargo cover, and has the more expensive automatic ($500 more) etc etc. You do know the Forester with the options that my XV has would cost me more than $3000.

It's sad really, you're the reason why companies have to do stupid things like put out base models that they don't stock no one buys or care about just so that you can talk about a price difference on a forum. A base Impreza at $17K! Sweet!! Of course it doesn't even have cruise control and looks like **** but now I can compare it to other cars in that price range womp womp!

But go on ahead and keep going "tee hee! I'll be happy bcuz the xv is going to fail cause I don't like it" all you want. If that makes you happy in your strange world, knock yourself out. Oh and no the extra 22hp wouldn't benefit me in the slightest and when I need to pass the car jumps when I press the peddle down.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:11 PM   #1729
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I'd buy a base Crosstrek without the premium package, but that's not an option. So... yes, I am.

They're both in the same price range, which is my point. The base XV I can buy is a Premium. The Base Forster and the 'base' XV is the same price. That the Forester has more power, more interior volume, and a 6MT and not the 5MT... with very little difference in gas mileage... makes it a bigger bargain than the XV, for the SAME PRICE.

I don't care that the XV has 'extra stuff' because a 'base' XV would be just fine for me but, as I said, not an option.

They are comparable. And no where have I said the XV is going to fail. I have simply said it's overpriced.

--kC
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:15 PM   #1730
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I'd buy a base Crosstrek without the premium package, but that's not an option. So... yes, I am.

They're both in the same price range, which is my point. The base XV I can buy is a Premium. The Base Forster and the 'base' XV is the same price. That the Forester has more power, more interior volume, and a 6MT and not the 5MT... with very little difference in gas mileage... makes it a bigger bargain than the XV, for the SAME PRICE.

I don't care that the XV has 'extra stuff' because a 'base' XV would be just fine for me but, as I said, not an option.

They are comparable.

--kC
+1...
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:25 PM   #1731
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And just in case you don't understand...

Quote:
The Base Forester that doesn't have roof rails,
Don't care
Quote:
weather package,
Don't care
Quote:
fog lights
Don't care
Quote:
cargo cover,
I can buy one
Quote:
and has the more expensive automatic ($500 more) etc etc.
And again, I don't care. I'd pick a stick, as mentioned before the XV being a 5MT and the Forester being the 6MT.

At that, they both have the same CVT "automatic" IIRC. No more EATs.

--kC
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:26 PM   #1732
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That's not an overlap thats preference. Anything with the same price isn't a overlap. BRZ and WRX isn't a overlap because RWD is fine for me. You did exactly what Subaru would expect you to do. If you wanted a plain base vehicle with no options you would get the forester because the Crosstrek doesn't offer that. It would be an overlap if the XV did offer that forcing you to decide between them but their is no decision here because like you said that isn't an option on the XV so the XV isn't an option making the Premium XV and Base Forester not competitors.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:34 PM   #1733
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What is the base XV I can buy? What price is it? What price is the base 6MT Forester?

If a customer, like me, wants a Subaru, has ~$22.5k to spend, they can buy an XV or a Forester right now. THe XV has more 'stuff', but that only brings the price 'up' of the XV to the same price as the Base Forester. Either of which are perfectly fine for this customer.

I don't know how much easier I can say it? I'd buy a "base" XV if I could, but it doesn't exist. And I'd be happy with that being thousands less. It's not a matter of "wanting" a plain base vehicle, it's saying that the XV and Forester are the same price. The. Same. Price.

An Impreza isn't an option. Too low. A legacy and outback are too expensive. BRZ? Nope. I'd love one, but I have an s2000 toy car right now. If it comes as a convertible, I'd get one, but it's a play car and not a commuter.

--kC

Last edited by KC; 03-10-2013 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:38 PM   #1734
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Originally Posted by brettjr25 View Post
That's not an overlap thats preference. Anything with the same price isn't a overlap. BRZ and WRX isn't a overlap because RWD is fine for me. You did exactly what Subaru would expect you to do. If you wanted a plain base vehicle with no options you would get the forester because the Crosstrek doesn't offer that. It would be an overlap if the XV did offer that forcing you to decide between them but their is no decision here because like you said that isn't an option on the XV so the XV isn't an option making the Premium XV and Base Forester not competitors.
If you don't care about fog lights, roof rails, fancy wheels, cargo cover...etc. then it is a base Forester vs. a base XV (premium).

You then neglect other features that someone might value in the base Forester over the XV premium. Cargo area. 6MT. FB25. Rear leg room.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:42 PM   #1735
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
I'd buy a base Crosstrek without the premium package, but that's not an option. So... yes, I am.

They're both in the same price range, which is my point. The base XV I can buy is a Premium. The Base Forster and the 'base' XV is the same price. That the Forester has more power, more interior volume, and a 6MT and not the 5MT... with very little difference in gas mileage... makes it a bigger bargain than the XV, for the SAME PRICE.

I don't care that the XV has 'extra stuff' because a 'base' XV would be just fine for me but, as I said, not an option.

They are comparable. And no where have I said the XV is going to fail. I have simply said it's overpriced.

--kC
The base '13 Forester doesn't have a 6MT, and it's a whole $375 cheaper than the XV Premium. The '14 does have a 6MT, and it's the same price.

The XV also has while the base Forester (either year) doesn't have:
Alloy wheels
Windshield wiper de-icer
Heated mirrors
Fog lights
Roof rails
Heated seats
One touch UP and down driver's window
and the cargo area cover

So what's the advantage of the Forester? Cargo space that nobody uses and cathedral ceilings? I'm driving a Forester now and that roof is HIGH, who's going to pack the back of the thing to the ceiling to take advantage of the so-called "more interior volume?"

People are going to buy the XV because they don't want a boxy, more SUV-shaped vehicle...which also happens to be a better value.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:50 PM   #1736
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So what's the advantage of the Forester? Cargo space that nobody uses and cathedral ceilings? I'm driving a Forester now and that roof is HIGH, who's going to pack the back of the thing to the ceiling to take advantage of the so-called "more interior volume?"

People are going to buy the XV because they don't want a boxy, more SUV-shaped vehicle...which also happens to be a better value.

Forester has plenty of advantages. Those that have a family, can fit more cargo on family trips in the back of a Forester than an XV. The rear passengers have more leg room than in an XV. If you have dogs, dogs will have more room in the Forester as well. If you are into out door activities, you have room for your ski/snowboard gear, mountains bikes, camping equipment, climbing equipment...etc.

People are going to buy the Forester because they want a CUV that offers more practical space for daily living and a better value.

All of the "Alloy wheels, Windshield wiper de-icer, Heated mirrors, Fog lights, Roof rails, Heated seats, , One touch UP and down driver's window, and the cargo area cover" doesn't matter to someone if they want more interior space for people and cargo.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:10 PM   #1737
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Originally Posted by richde View Post
The base '13 Forester doesn't have a 6MT, and it's a whole $375 cheaper than the XV Premium. The '14 does have a 6MT, and it's the same price.
I was comparing the XV and the '14 Forester.
Quote:
The XV also has while the base Forester (either year) doesn't have:
Alloy wheels
Windshield wiper de-icer
Heated mirrors
Fog lights
Roof rails
Heated seats
One touch UP and down driver's window
and the cargo area cover

So what's the advantage of the Forester? Cargo space that nobody uses and cathedral ceilings? I'm driving a Forester now and that roof is HIGH, who's going to pack the back of the thing to the ceiling to take advantage of the so-called "more interior volume?"
More power, torque, and a closer ratio 6MT that can make use of it better? I would think if the XV had the 6MT to make use of the lower HP, it'd be more sprightly. When I drive on vacation, with the wife, 2 dogs, clubs, and luggage, they both work also.

Quote:
People are going to buy the XV because they don't want a boxy, more SUV-shaped vehicle...which also happens to be a better value.
Why would either of these work? My commute doesn't have the best roads. They suck. Seriously. I've had 14 Subarus including a Baja Turbo, WRX Wagon, 2.5RS and many others. I've also had trucks, jeeps, etc... I like the clearance the XV or Forester give, especially when in the snow. (Which is another reason I prefer MT over CVT/AT for the AWD that is used).

Honestly, creature comforts don't matter much. If they did, I wouldn't be looking at a Subaru. I prefer function, reliability and the same all weather can-do attitude that most Subarus I've owned have provided.

I'd be keeping this car until it dies. Just like our '02 Tahoe with 210k miles on it. It's basic all-weather transportation.

--kC
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:17 AM   #1738
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Forester has plenty of advantages. Those that have a family, can fit more cargo on family trips in the back of a Forester than an XV. The rear passengers have more leg room than in an XV. If you have dogs, dogs will have more room in the Forester as well. If you are into out door activities, you have room for your ski/snowboard gear, mountains bikes, camping equipment, climbing equipment...etc.

People are going to buy the Forester because they want a CUV that offers more practical space for daily living and a better value.

All of the "Alloy wheels, Windshield wiper de-icer, Heated mirrors, Fog lights, Roof rails, Heated seats, , One touch UP and down driver's window, and the cargo area cover" doesn't matter to someone if they want more interior space for people and cargo.
So if someone didn't need the extra space, why would they buy a bigger, heavier and less efficient Forester? Getting less while they're at it. Course, after you put four people into a Forester, you realize it doesn't have the cargo space for four people's ****, so you have to use a top box. Oh, wait...dammit. Just going for a short trip? Then the leg room doesn't really matter.

The two cars are after two different consumers.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:47 AM   #1739
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
I was comparing the XV and the '14 Forester.
More power, torque, and a closer ratio 6MT that can make use of it better? I would think if the XV had the 6MT to make use of the lower HP, it'd be more sprightly. When I drive on vacation, with the wife, 2 dogs, clubs, and luggage, they both work also.

Why would either of these work? My commute doesn't have the best roads. They suck. Seriously. I've had 14 Subarus including a Baja Turbo, WRX Wagon, 2.5RS and many others. I've also had trucks, jeeps, etc... I like the clearance the XV or Forester give, especially when in the snow. (Which is another reason I prefer MT over CVT/AT for the AWD that is used).

Honestly, creature comforts don't matter much. If they did, I wouldn't be looking at a Subaru. I prefer function, reliability and the same all weather can-do attitude that most Subarus I've owned have provided.

I'd be keeping this car until it dies. Just like our '02 Tahoe with 210k miles on it. It's basic all-weather transportation.

--kC
Is the 6mt the same one they put in the impreza in other parts of the world? If it is, it isn't s close geared transmission, it is the same 5 gears we get and 1 additional overdrive gear
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:54 AM   #1740
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Originally Posted by richde View Post
So if someone didn't need the extra space, why would they buy a bigger, heavier and less efficient Forester? Getting less while they're at it. Course, after you put four people into a Forester, you realize it doesn't have the cargo space for four people's ****, so you have to use a top box. Oh, wait...dammit. Just going for a short trip? Then the leg room doesn't really matter.

The two cars are after two different consumers.
Why wouldn't you have room for 4 people's **** in the Forester? Since when is more leg room, regardless of trip length, a bad thing?

Just like you don't care about back seat leg length or increase cargo capacity, some don't care about fancy wheels, AWP, roof rails, fog lights or one up/down window.

If someone comes into a Subaru dealership with a budget of $22k and they want ground clearance, you don't think they will check out both the XV and Forester? There will be plenty to check out both as well as those that already have their mind set prior to visiting dealership that they only want to check out one of them for a particular reason.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:45 AM   #1741
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I've been keeping my eye on the XV, but I'm not sure if I can part with my 04 WRX wagon. Found this vid that has me leaning towards the XV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=H1ZkZU85sE0
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:36 AM   #1742
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Originally Posted by richde View Post
So if someone didn't need the extra space, why would they buy a bigger, heavier and less efficient Forester?
Quite a valid statement. Countered with only marginally less efficent by 1-2mpg, but less efficient just the same.

Quote:
Getting less while they're at it.
Getting less what?

Quote:
Course, after you put four people into a Forester, you realize it doesn't have the cargo space for four people's ****, so you have to use a top box. Conversely, you get even less in an XV. Oh, wait...dammit. Just going for a short trip? Then the leg room doesn't really matter.
You admit you get even less room in an XV, so I don't understand the negative point you're attempting to make.

Quote:
The two cars are after two different consumers.
And I'm living proof that they can be cross-shopped, regardless the intent of their production/demographics. Could I be an outlier? Yep. Not denying that.

However, think about the following demographics: Couple. No kids/family. Pets. Like the outdoors. Active.

Now think about the marketing that SOA has for both cars:

1) The XV with it pulling up to the cabin with the dog in the back. They actually have one kid (maybe two at the last take with the puppies). Off road. Outdoorsy. Animals. Or, small, young family.

2) Forester... who are these cars (stereotypically) marketed towards? Again, typical not to have kids.

If you think these cars aren't marked towards the DINKS of the worlds (DINK - Double Income No Kids), you'e sorely mistaken. And in that... the wife and I fit perfectly to those two markets for either car.

Do I *need* the more room the Forester provides? No. It's a "nice to have" but not a necessary "gotta have" item. Much like the AWP, one touch up/down, roof rails, etc... that the XV comes with. All "nice to have" items, but not a necessity. I don't *need* items that are purely for convenience.

It's the wife and I and our two bigger dogs. Ocassionally the MIL or friends. No kids.

So, ask yourself again who the targeted demographic of consumers are. Two people with no or small kids, right? And keep in mind what the wife and I are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy1100 View Post
Is the 6mt the same one they put in the impreza in other parts of the world? If it is, it isn't s close geared transmission, it is the same 5 gears we get and 1 additional overdrive gear
Don't know and that's a good question/point. I'll look it up.

--kC
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:17 AM   #1743
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Code:
Crosstrek XV				'14 Forester
First Gear Ratio - 3.545		1st 3.454, 
Second Gear Ratio - 1.888		2nd 1.888
Third Gear Ratio - 1.296		3rd 1.296	
Fourth Gear Ratio - 0.972		4th 0.972
Fifth Gear Ratio - 0.780		5th 0.780
					6th 0.695
Reverse Ratio - 3.333			R 3.686	
Final Drive Axle Ratio - 4.444		Final 4.444
Ok, so just the 1st gear is slightly shorter in the XV than the Forester... probably to help with the lower engine output.

--kC
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:19 AM   #1744
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Originally Posted by pebelz View Post
I've been keeping my eye on the XV, but I'm not sure if I can part with my 04 WRX wagon. Found this vid that has me leaning towards the XV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=H1ZkZU85sE0
Put Forester struts and aftermarket camber bolts on your WRX if that's what you want. Buying a new car so that you can tear it up trying to pretend it's a truck is a horrible idea. Tearing up your old beater off-road with a lifted suspension is a much wiser use of money and time.


Edit: holy crap.. the new Foresters has a 4.444 FD?? I guess the double-overdrive 6 speed makes up for it. I'm just surprised to see that combo.

Last edited by Calamity Jesus; 03-11-2013 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:11 AM   #1745
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Edit: holy crap.. the new Foresters has a 4.444 FD?? I guess the double-overdrive 6 speed makes up for it. I'm just surprised to see that combo.
You're not the only one.

--kC
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:18 PM   #1746
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Yea! Just picked up my Crosstrek Saturday. I was scanning inventory and saw what I wanted last Wednesday and put a deal together over emails and phone calls by Friday. The funny thing about it was there was a $5,000 'market adjustment' sticker next to the mfg. sticker. I negotiated ~$1550 below sticker. Can't believe some people fall for that.

Anyway, it's a Premium Dark Grey CVT w/ Moonroof and PP#2. Can't be happier and hope I can drive it 10.5 years like the Outback I'm getting out of.

Last edited by subarubadoo2; 03-11-2013 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:37 PM   #1747
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I just thought the vid was cool. I don't want to tear up a new car, but the capabilities are nice to see. I'm keeping the WRX, but the XV is the first new car that made me consider a change.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:58 PM   #1748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
And I'm living proof that they can be cross-shopped, regardless the intent of their production/demographics. Could I be an outlier? Yep. Not denying that.

However, think about the following demographics: Couple. No kids/family. Pets. Like the outdoors. Active.

Now think about the marketing that SOA has for both cars:

1) The XV with it pulling up to the cabin with the dog in the back. They actually have one kid (maybe two at the last take with the puppies). Off road. Outdoorsy. Animals. Or, small, young family.

2) Forester... who are these cars (stereotypically) marketed towards? Again, typical not to have kids.

If you think these cars aren't marked towards the DINKS of the worlds (DINK - Double Income No Kids), you'e sorely mistaken. And in that... the wife and I fit perfectly to those two markets for either car.

Do I *need* the more room the Forester provides? No. It's a "nice to have" but not a necessary "gotta have" item. Much like the AWP, one touch up/down, roof rails, etc... that the XV comes with. All "nice to have" items, but not a necessity. I don't *need* items that are purely for convenience.

It's the wife and I and our two bigger dogs. Ocassionally the MIL or friends. No kids.


--kC
Without searching for more, the only Forester commercials that comes to mind for me(that isn't full of dogs) is one called "Subaru heaven" and "Hockey Mom". I do believe "Hockey Mom" IS targeting families with kids. I should have waited till I was back at the dealership tomorrow, but they send out marketing guides for new models that show what customer target they are going after. I will edit this tomorrow with what they put for this.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:13 PM   #1749
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Without searching for more, the only Forester commercials that comes to mind for me(that isn't full of dogs) is one called "Subaru heaven" and "Hockey Mom". I do believe "Hockey Mom" IS targeting families with kids. I should have waited till I was back at the dealership tomorrow, but they send out marketing guides for new models that show what customer target they are going after. I will edit this tomorrow with what they put for this.

1) Outdoors MTB/Kayak:

2) Picking up fruit from farm/power rear gate:

3) Protective design of vehicle (more generic for Subaru in general):
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:15 PM   #1750
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
1) Outdoors MTB/Kayak: The all-new 2014 Subaru Forester - YouTube

2) Picking up fruit from farm/power rear gate: 2014 Subaru Forester: Available Power Rear Gate - YouTube

3) Protective design of vehicle (more generic for Subaru in general): Protective Systems - YouTube


Is that supporting my statement or going against it?
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