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Old 02-03-2016, 11:20 AM   #1
svynx
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2002 hybrid 16gxt
'03 Lifted TS

Default Svynx's hybrid build / semi budget build

Took some soul searching and some time, but decided to do a hybrid build instead of the 2.1 stroker that I originally planned. Luckily for me, all the parts I have already purchased can be used on this build, so no loss there. I will be using a small turbo when compared to what usually is used. I'm looking for quick spool, hitting peak torque as quickly as possible. The build will be budget minded. While there are a few things that will be sacrificed to save a dollar, there are a few things that won't. This build is also focused on reliability, as I don't want to have to tear things apart 10-20k down the line for a rebuild. The car lost its daily drive status last year after purchasing the 03 TS, but it will see multiple 1000 mile trips along with its weekend warrior status. Pretty much all parts are being purchased from Andrewtech, and they will be dealing with their machine shop (Airpark Automasters) for all the machine work and some assembly). Details:

Items I have already for the build:
- used STi block, bored to 100mm
- used Manley rods
- STi cams
- new 2.5 crank
- new Blouch 16g-xt (41lb/min) with 8cm turbine housing
- Walbro 255 pump
- DW850cc injectors edit: went with ID1000cc
- TGV composite deletes
- JE FSR hybrid pistons 8.5:1 comp

To be purchased:
- bearings (I believe Airpark prefers Kings)
- misc seals/gaskets
- oil pump (10mm)

Things to be decided:
- if ARP head studs are worth installing


- could be others, just can't think of any right now


Just an fyi: transmission already taken care of. Andrewtech built a 5 speed using a LGT gearset, along with the 4.11 final drive. Honestly, the end result as far as mph vs rpm is pretty much identical when compared to stock (all but 5th), but the gears are stronger, and it has a slight mechanical advantage.
Should be a fun, snappy car. More to come as things progress.


To keep track of what has been spent, I'll put up a few items. I purchased the turbo, injectors, fuel pump, tgv deletes, and the crank quite some time ago, so even though they are part of the build, I'm not going to add them in. They did add up to about $1,300 (secret: bide your time and find the deals, even on new parts. They can be found). Shooting for staying under $2,000 this time around. And depending if I can sell what I don't use, I will put my goal at staying below $1,500.

To date (2/4/16)
block (including machining cost), rods, cams

2/17/16
New total with the addition of the pistons. I'll get an invoice for all the misc parts that are needed and the assembly charge once it is finished.

3/31/16
Block is assembled and ready for pickup. One STi cam is tapped and set-screwed. The second will be done this weekend. I am also removing the engine this weekend and getting the heads off. These will be shipped out in a week or so. Once AirPark has them, they will disassemble them, clean them up, and at that point they will let me know what is needed. I already know that I will be installing new springs and retainers (Supertech titanium). Whether the valves themselves are ok with just a angle job, or if the guides need replaced will be addressed at that point. Once the heads are finished, I will have them torque the heads onto the block and adjust valve lash. That's where the outside help will end. At that point, I'll pick things up and take it from there.

4/25/16
Update: Well, the block isn't quite ready for me to pickup. There have been multiple setbacks, but I did find out that the block has been picked up today from the machine shop and is now at the builder. The shop owner went in for surgery and will be out for a week, but his minions will be working on it starting Monday. They estimate 3-4 days for assembly, so I am looking at May 9-13 for pickup. In the meantime, I will be able to have everything ready to go for when the motor arrives. I have 3 more fittings to attach for the AWIC upgrade (I am finding out why shops charge the $$$ to do stainless braided lines for anything...holy hell they are a bitch). New fuel pump is installed. Heads will be cleaned up and the slight scoring on the cams will be sanded down. There's still some work to do, but I suspect a motor install Saturday, May 14th.

5/9/16
With multiple setbacks, my block is now being built. I'm not sure what was going on with both the machine shop and the assembler, but things have been taken care of and I'm scheduled to pick the block up on Friday. I will hand it to Andrewtech. Even though communication has been lacking compared to the first time I dealt with them, they have gone above and beyond to make me happy. I am by no means a frequent shopper there, nor would I call myself a big spender. However they have made some deals that would make anyone a return customer.

Tested the AWIC system. Once I figured out that I forgot to bleed the pump, everything worked like it should. Not leaks as of yet. Fixed my side skirt issues as some of the mounting point were broken and allowed the skirt to hang low. I'll drag the car out of the garage today or tomorrow (I need to do brakes on my sisters car) and I'll pressure wash the engine bay.
Now just waiting on the block.

6/14/16
Taking the car in for inspection today, so I'm looking at being able to drive if for 2 days before going out of town.
As far as meeting my budget, I'm pretty damn close. If I include the price of the tune (when it happens) I'll be a hair over the $2000 mark for everything, and I haven't sold very much of the old parts, which will bring that number down some. Overall, I think I did pretty well. There still most likely will be some expenses that show up for the random issues that might show up, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to them.


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Last edited by svynx; 05-24-2017 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:41 PM   #2
mod maniac
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That looks like a fine budget build. The only thing I like to do different on a hybrid is to run some 272's but I am sure it will be fine without them.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2601160 http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2563174

Last edited by mod maniac; 02-03-2016 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:19 AM   #3
svynx
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Hey Mod. I read both of those posts a few times, among others. I considered larger cams than the STi ones that are being installed. Two factors that turned me away from them. First would be the cost. I feel that for the $500 I am going to spend to have the head work done, I'll get more out of my money by doing the port/polish. The STi cams cost me $80. Second would be how they would effect the torque curve. I'm trying to keep as much low end as possible, and from everything that I have learned, cams take power from one place in the RPM band in order to put it somewhere else. In this case, the low end would be taken from for a bigger high end. Not really what I'm going for.
I talked to Big Ron about his hybrid build. I'm going for something similar with my build. My injectors a slightly smaller, turbo is ever so slightly larger (with a smaller hot side though), but in the end, his results are pretty much what I want out of my car.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&highlight=fsr
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:51 PM   #4
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This seems to be a pretty well thought out build. I think you have a solid plans and no ill conceived notion that this thing will carry 20+ psi out to 8k. I look forward to seeing this thing being a blast to drive. I'd like to see how the trans holds up to that torque hit. Any plans for blast plates or other transmission reinforcement? Build has me stoked!!! Best of luck!
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:53 PM   #5
svynx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxhard View Post
This seems to be a pretty well thought out build. I think you have a solid plans and no ill conceived notion that this thing will carry 20+ psi out to 8k. I look forward to seeing this thing being a blast to drive. I'd like to see how the trans holds up to that torque hit. Any plans for blast plates or other transmission reinforcement? Build has me stoked!!! Best of luck!
Currently I don't have any plans to do any more work to the trans. I used a 05 LGT gearset. From my research, and from what I've been told, these are RA gear thickness, which is a little more than the stock 02/03 wrx gears are, so I gained a little strength there. I also had the 4.11 final installed, which will help. And how many 400-500hp LGT's do we see with trans issues? Not many. Having said that, I did look at Moore's website about their blast plates. I'm fairly handy, and am a capable welder, so while the engine is out, I might try my hand at making myself a set of plates. Not that I think I would need them, but it would be fun to build.
I'm excited too. It has been a long time coming for something like this. My thrust bearing is starting to wear, allowing the crank to walk a little It's only a matter of time before things go bad. This build has been in the making for well over a year now. Kept second guessing myself and changing my mind. Countless hours of reading and research, getting quotes for random stuff, and then changing my mind again. Talked to a lot of different people with different setups. Talked to multiple shops. Ever since Andrewtech did my transmission, I've gone to them for the random part. They don't do the machining themselves, so I didn't bother calling them about this. I should have from the start as it would have saved me some time and aggravation. I contacted IAG (both IAG, Agile, and Andrewtech are about the same distance from me) about the machine work. They don't do any machine work besides port matching on the S20 heads. And if they did, they charge $1,200 for the work. Not worth it in my eyes. So, on an off chance Andrewtech would have a set of ported heads lying around, I gave them a call. Not only does the shop that they work with port the S20 heads, the price is less than half of what IAG would have charged. And it includes reassembly and valve lash adjustment. Now the port isn't anything to about. They will just clean up flashings. More of a polish instead of a port. And on top of this, Sam has really good pricing on all the items I still need. One stop shop for me.
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:27 PM   #6
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I've got a perfectly fine 10mm oil pump with 700 miles on it for sale if you're interested in getting something like new at a ore budget-build friendly price. Only pulled it to install an 11mm (which turned out to be another 10mm that was misboxed but that's another story) on a fresh built block.

Looks like you have a fun project going on!
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:34 PM   #7
svynx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STiSomeday View Post
I've got a perfectly fine 10mm oil pump with 700 miles on it for sale if you're interested in getting something like new at a ore budget-build friendly price. Only pulled it to install an 11mm (which turned out to be another 10mm that was misboxed but that's another story) on a fresh built block.

Looks like you have a fun project going on!
I read that thread. PM me a price. I may be interested. I'm a long way away from needing to buy an oil pump, but for the right price...
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:57 PM   #8
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OP - I'm in a similar spot. Can you tell me how you decided between the stroker and the hybrid? I'm still on the fence.

I want the hybrid, my builder recommends the stroker.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:21 AM   #9
svynx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan240 View Post
OP - I'm in a similar spot. Can you tell me how you decided between the stroker and the hybrid? I'm still on the fence.

I want the hybrid, my builder recommends the stroker.
Long story.
In the end, it was a simple solution, but I really did go back and forth with it for quite some time. Originally, I wanted to be different, as that is the type of person I am. Everyone in my area either has the stock 2.0, stock 2.5, or a hybrid. No one even heard of the stroker. So naturally, I gravitated towards that build. Started buying things for it at that point. It was also a convenience thing because my wrx was still my daily driver. I needed something that I could put together and get running over a weekend, but I didn't want to replace things with another stock motor. So, stroker motor it was. Paired to the VF23 I had, which later changed to the Evo3 16g, and then again to the Blouch 16g. I got to the point where I needed to be 100% certain that this was the direction I wanted to go, so once again, more research. I had to decide what I wanted out of the car. End result stuff. For me, I want as much power as possible for exiting a corner on a autocross course. We have a few per year that are local to me. Now if you drive a stroker properly, you can get away with it by keeping the rpm's high. But, to get the most out of a high reving engine, headwork is pretty much a necessity. A good port, high rpm springs, possibly new, lighter valves. That $$ adds up very quickly. That was one of the deciding factors. I took a ride in a 04 wrx that has a hybrid with an 18g in it. My brother has the last year model of the big v8 BMW M5. The torque out of it...awesome. The 04 hybrid 18g felt less than that of course, but the power was nice and linear, very similar to the M5. I liked that. So, I researched the hybrids. The link I posted (post 3) is Ron's build. There are subtle differences between his and mine, but the end result will be about the same. 350whp and 370 torque, all of which comes on very quickly.

Long winded, and most likely not a lot of help. Sorry. I did make a list of pros/cons of both builds. The two things that stuck out to me: 1: you don't need to rev the piss out of a motor to get good power out of it, and 2: torque is fun (as long as other things can handle it...)
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Old 02-17-2016, 08:42 AM   #10
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Interesting. I'll be doing a 2.1 stroker as i already have the 2.0 block and quad AVCS.
with 100mm in your block tell your tuner to use as little timing as possible in the midrange so that the block doesn't split on ya.
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Old 02-18-2016, 09:55 AM   #11
svynx
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Latest: purchased the pistons. The crank that I purchased a while ago is leaving my house today and should arrive at the machine shop in a few days. At that point, assembly will begin for the short block. Mid March is when I expect to pull the motor out of the WRX. At that point I'll remove the heads and ship them down along with the STi cams (with plugged AVCS holes) for the port/polish and assembly. I'll know at that point if I need anything else for the heads. Part of me feels that I should at least to retainers and springs, but I'll leave that up to the shop. I suspect that the long block assembly will be finished mid April.
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:55 AM   #12
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Got an update for us, Joel? Getting ready to pull the motor?
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:30 AM   #13
svynx
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Got an update for us, Joel? Getting ready to pull the motor?
Hey Mr. P. Nothing as of yet. I will becalling AndrewTech today to see how things are progressing. If they are open on the 25th (good Friday), I'll get the motor out and drive down to deliver the heads. If not, then it will be a few more weeks until I have the time to get things ready.
I guess I lied. There have been a few things that have happened. I'm still undecided on the injectors. I keep reading the thread with the 18g on a hybrid using 750 injectors and only hitting 75-80% duty cycle. If that's true, then at least on pump I'll be ok to go. We only have one station within "driving" distance that has E85, which doesn't make it a viable option. Jury is still out on injectors.
The STi cams showed up last week. I purchased the tap that I will be using. One thing I saw in the "use STi cams in wrx heads" thread was that people used 1/4" long set screws. I'm going for at least 1/2" long that will be countersunk a good 1/2". I know that this will require a lot more time and effort to get the holes tapped far enough. But, by doing this, I will have 2x the thread and thread sealant being used (which will definitly help with any possible leaks), and I will also use JB weld between the end of the cam and the set screw as a secondary boundary. Double redundancy ftw. I thought about putting JB weld on the inside of the hole, and then the set screw, but I don't want to risk a small piece coming loose and finding its way out the other end.
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Old 03-10-2016, 02:33 AM   #14
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For injectors, ID (Injector Dynamics) is the way to go. ID is more reliable, where Deatschwerks takes OEM injectors and reworks them to whatever flow spec. I have DW1000's and they get the job done but they're dialed WAYYYY back. Target boost is 21psi and I'll hit about 64% at WOT and full boost. I'd suggest 850's, I have a 16g/18g hybrid, and I have a friend that with 750's/fuel pump and the stock VF48 was running out of fuel in his 08 STi.

On the note of the set screws in the heads: I haven't done any reading on any of that, but just quadruple check that there is more than enough material in the heads where you're going to be placing the set screws that you can safely and effectively drill/tap/install the 1/2" set screws.
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Old 03-11-2016, 08:00 AM   #15
svynx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bapaul View Post
For injectors, ID (Injector Dynamics) is the way to go. ID is more reliable, where Deatschwerks takes OEM injectors and reworks them to whatever flow spec.
Agreed on this part, but from the research I've done, the 1000cc's is where DW falls off the band wagon. Multiple people and multiple tuners say that these are really rough to deal with, whereas the ID 1000cc's are no issue. I've got 850cc DW's right now. Technically they are for sale. However, I'll use them if they don't sell. At least from what I've seen on here, the 850's aren't a problem.
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Old 03-11-2016, 08:03 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bapaul View Post
On the note of the set screws in the heads: I haven't done any reading on any of that, but just quadruple check that there is more than enough material in the "CAMS" where you're going to be placing the set screws that you can safely and effectively drill/tap/install the 1/2" "LONG" set screws.
Edited and added for clarification. The AVCS holes will be plugged.
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Old 03-22-2016, 09:16 AM   #17
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Small update. I spent some time working on the STi cams over the weekend. I'm not 100% sure on the drill bit size, but after some searching, I found that a 10-32 tap was the perfect size for the existing AVCS holes. The corresponding drill bit barely fit when I ran it through to clean out anything that might have been there. It took me about an hour to tap 4 holes. And, being a fairly common thread, the set screws were found at my local ACE hardware. They didn't have 1/2" set screws, so I settled for 3/8". Installed them with red locktite, and countersunk them about 1/4". I intend to fill the rest of the hole with JB weld, just as a precaution.

Talked with Sam at Andrewtech. The shortblock should be ready by the end of this week, which means I need to get my butt in gear and get the engine pulled so I can take the heads down. Question: since I am replacing the cams, and the stock 2.0 valvetrain has 145k miles on it, I suspect that replacing the springs and retainers would be a good idea. Suggestions on which one to go with? I don't plan on replacing the valves as long as they are in good shape, but I'm prepared to hear that it would be better to just freshen everything up.
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Old 03-31-2016, 02:58 PM   #18
svynx
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Added more to the first post.

Question for those that know. On 2.0 heads, how much would a mild port/polish really help? From what you can see, I'm not going with larger than factory valves. Springs will be upgraded. Mainly for reliability's sake, and not for any performance increase. STi cams will give me a little more flow in the higher RPM ranges with the slightly higher lift profile. Nothing else will be done.
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Old 04-02-2016, 04:50 AM   #19
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Thanks for the update, Joel

There should be threads around here somewhere that address the 2.0 vs 2.5 head flow numbers with and without a P&P. I swear I read something on that in here before... maybe that was for Intake Mani's.
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:41 AM   #20
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Thanks for the update, Joel

There should be threads around here somewhere that address the 2.0 vs 2.5 head flow numbers with and without a P&P. I swear I read something on that in here before... maybe that was for Intake Mani's.
I've read a number of threads on the intake manifolds. I've considered going with the big plenum long runner for better flow...still on the fence with that one. But in any case, I was misinformed on the charge for the porting. Either Andrewtech or I misread the emails. The $600 charge is to take both heads, disassemble, clean, and then reassemble. I'd find out about the need for new valve at that point. The porting would be $500 or so above that.

And that brings me full circle to the question about just how much a light port/polish would do for a build like this. Is it worth the $500 charge? I don't know. It wouldn't break the bank to do it, but could $500 be spent somewhere else to get more $/hp?
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Old 04-04-2016, 11:00 PM   #21
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You need to look at flow characteristics with the turbo you're going with and look at the numbers the heads will put out vs with the P&P. If you're only doing a light P&P or minimal work, it prob won't be worth the effort/$$$.

As far as the intake mani, I'd go with the 2.5 NA long runner/big plenum, just make sure it's compatible with your heads before you pull the trigger on anything.
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Old 04-05-2016, 08:20 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by bapaul View Post
You need to look at flow characteristics with the turbo you're going with and look at the numbers the heads will put out vs with the P&P. If you're only doing a light P&P or minimal work, it prob won't be worth the effort/$$$.

As far as the intake mani, I'd go with the 2.5 NA long runner/big plenum, just make sure it's compatible with your heads before you pull the trigger on anything.
Yeah. I thought about it last night as I was taking a head off the stock motor (snapped a head stud). I don't think I'll bother with the porting.

And for the mani, 25rsti contacted me. He has one that he would sell. I'm assuming it fit on his car, so it should fit on mine. Only questions I had were about TMIC and DBC fitment.
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Old 04-11-2016, 02:08 PM   #23
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Came across a few items that were to good to pass up. One is a 2.5i longrunner mani. Still needs some work, but overall the majority of modding has been done already. Still kind of on the fence about running it. I'll make that decision once the block is in the car and I can test fit everything.
The second item would be a set of fully built heads. BC 272 cams, springs, and retainers (if it matters, these are 25rsti's "old" heads with 6000 miles on them). My question is on the cams themselves. I realize that the turbo I am going with is small when comparing it to a standard STi upgrade. Throwing these cams on top of that, I suspect (and this is purely speculation), I won't get much out of them. It might be a better choice to go with the stock STi cams I have. Anyone have any thoughts?
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:14 AM   #24
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Got an answer direct from BC.

"That is the stage 2 cam set so you will not sacrifice bottom end. The upgraded cam set really wakes the engine up as the OEM cams are very mild."

I still have some research to do, but it looks like as long as my tuner is ok with them, I'll run the cams.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:42 PM   #25
wrxhard
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Search ppb for bmxhotsauces thread. He has a similar top end with a vf39 iirc. He got incredible results. I think you're good.
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