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Old 03-14-2012, 08:30 PM   #1
ManualOverAuto
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Default Could there ever be a manual CVT?

Do you guys think it would be possible for car engineers to make a CVT manual transmission? No paddle shifter BS, I mean clutch, clutch pedal, shifter, ect. I'm asking you guys because I can't think of how it would work with the "infinite" gear ratios and such. But I just feel like there's got to be a way.

Untill then iIl stick with an MT. I like the Cvt technology, and as it keeps progressing I'm sure it will become more and more appealing. It may even eventually replace the 4&5eat's. Hopefully not manuals though......

I just curious, so any brainstorming or ideas are welcome.
Here's my input, the name:
CVMT (don't really need to elaborate, lol)
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:06 PM   #2
drewmob
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Are you stoned?
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:34 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmob
Are you stoned?
What? You can't tell me you wouldn't like to see one if it were possible.

Unless it's literally impossible and I just don't fully understand CVTs. That can't be the case because way crazier things have been invented.

Internet?
I bet the person who thought of it was asked the same question you asked me.

1-"hey I got this idea. On computers we could store, create, and look up infinite data at any time."
2-"are you stoned?"
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:44 PM   #4
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Ha well you wouldn't need a clutch, no need to disengage the gearbox to change ratios.

It would just be a lever you slide to and fro to change ratio. I am thinking it falls into the "too complicated for manual control" category like an 8 speed manual. Part of the viability if the CVT is electronic control of the ratio.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:56 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Power6
Ha well you wouldn't need a clutch, no need to disengage the gearbox to change ratios.

It would just be a lever you slide to and fro to change ratio. I am thinking it falls into the "too complicated for manual control" category like an 8 speed manual. Part of the viability if the CVT is electronic control of the ratio.
Yea I understand what your saying. But I feel like the lightweight and efficiency of the CVT coupled with the efficiency and usefulness of a manual would be great.

I wouldn't really be a true CVT then I guess. It would kinda be like a pedal bike with the gears only using a clutch to change the speeds. It would be a far more lightweight system than gears and syncros and could maybe last longer?

Not grinding could really happen and driveline shock could be almost eliminated. When the clutch is pressed the belt/chain would be moved to the next selected gear. Left or right depending on which gear you choose.

Although bike gear chains like that do break more than they should, or pop off the gear.

Kinda a fail of a thread for me lol
:/
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:32 AM   #6
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The "torque converter" in all CVT i have played with locks up once the car is in motion, so in effect its an electronic clutch just like the BMW SMG gearbox.
What would be the point of a clutch once the engine and trans are connected?

Secondly the Subaru Pleo (if I remember correctly) had a "shifter" that allowed you to control the ratio of the transmission. Still I see no purpose for this.

The advantage of a real CVT is that you can tune a SINGLE RPM of the engine for the most power, then have the CVT hold it at that RPM throughout the increase in speed.
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Old 03-15-2012, 08:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciper View Post
The advantage of a real CVT is that you can tune a SINGLE RPM of the engine for the most power, then have the CVT hold it at that RPM throughout the increase in speed.

Exactly! A performance CVT isn't going to be one that allows you to manual shift. Right now CVT's are programmed to keep people happy. People like hearing the engine rev up when you step on the gas, and the rpms to increase with speed. That is absolutely not the best use of a CVT, at least with performance in mind.

What you should be excited about is ECU programming for a CVT. The ideal situation would be that the ECU controls the engine throttle entirely. There is no point to have that done by the driver. The gas pedal tells the computer how much torque to put down via the CVT.

Essentially, imagine whipping around an autocross course with the engine kept at a consistent 5000 rpm. (or whatever #) The ECU would govern the engine at that rpm, and adjust to maintain it. End result is that you have a dyno graph that is more or less flat across the entire range. If you get everything tuned and working together, the performance advantage would be HUGE.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciper
The "torque converter" in all CVT i have played with locks up once the car is in motion, so in effect its an electronic clutch just like the BMW SMG gearbox.
What would be the point of a clutch once the engine and trans are connected?

Secondly the Subaru Pleo (if I remember correctly) had a "shifter" that allowed you to control the ratio of the transmission. Still I see no purpose for this.

The advantage of a real CVT is that you can tune a SINGLE RPM of the engine for the most power, then have the CVT hold it at that RPM throughout the increase in speed.
Ciper knows what he's talking about. The OP has failed to impress me in multiple threads. I stick with my original sentiment when it comes to him.

As for the Internet argument that the OP so eloquently gathered, I'd say the original post would be like attempting to control the complexity of the interwebs through an 1940s-era telephone operator's switchboard. Your subsequent post does nothing to tether the nonsense of the original post. The idea of a clutch or shifter in a CVT directly negates the point of such technology

There have been multiple experimental race cars built using CVTs; this is nothing new. They do have a lot of benefit for performance consideration but have absolutely no need for a clutch or much in the way of user input. Simple settings such gas-saver, sport, & race would be sufficient for a great car.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmob

Ciper knows what he's talking about. The OP has failed to impress me in multiple threads. I stick with my original sentiment when it comes to him.

As for the Internet argument that the OP so eloquently gathered, I'd say the original post would be like attempting to control the complexity of the interwebs through an 1940s-era telephone operator's switchboard. Your subsequent post does nothing to tether the nonsense of the original post. The idea of a clutch or shifter in a CVT directly negates the point of such technology

There have been multiple experimental race cars built using CVTs; this is nothing new. They do have a lot of benefit for performance consideration but have absolutely no need for a clutch or much in the way of user input. Simple settings such gas-saver, sport, & race would be sufficient for a great car.
Lol failed to impress you? Sorry King Drew, my threads don't meet your superior standards. It was just a curious question and I got my answer. No need to try and hate on people cause they don't know as much as others.

And stick to your first sentence? No I wasnt "stoned" I was bored at work and thought up a question. What does being stoned have to do with anything either? I smoke, is there a problem? No.

All you had to say was "no it's not possible" or quote someone else's reply and say "this^".
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:48 AM   #10
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umadbro?
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmob
umadbro?
Youabitchbro?
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:26 PM   #12
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Just two comments...1) they are not light and there are still clutches and gears.2)You can't get a new Legacy with a 4eat anymore..you get a 5eat with the 3.6d. So eventually I see the 4eat a thing of the past.
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Old 06-14-2016, 09:49 PM   #13
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I was lead here by a Jalopnik post, but I just wanted to say to the OP that I was thinking the same, well almost, exact thing! No clutch just a lever that could be used when in "manual" mode. Pretty much would just be a rheostat connected to some kind of lever. But I'm so glad I'm not the only "stoned" one here. lol
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:12 AM   #14
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There is always risk in speculating about the future but my guess is we will see it someday. I have a 2012 base Impreza with the CVT. I absolutely hate it, but I can imagine the day when they make one that I can control directly and mate it to a turbocharged engine. Seems like it could, theoretically at least, keep everything spooled up and make for a faster car.

But theory aside, never again for the current generation. I don't like mine. The only good things I can say about it are it seems reliable and it allows the wife to drive one of our four Subarus!
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Old 06-15-2016, 12:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManualOverAuto View Post
Unless it's literally impossible and I just don't fully understand CVTs.
This. There aren't any gears to mesh and unmesh, hence no need to disconnect the engine from the transmission.
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Old 06-15-2016, 03:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmcquinn View Post
There is always risk in speculating about the future but my guess is we will see it someday. I have a 2012 base Impreza with the CVT. I absolutely hate it, but I can imagine the day when they make one that I can control directly and mate it to a turbocharged engine. Seems like it could, theoretically at least, keep everything spooled up and make for a faster car.

But theory aside, never again for the current generation. I don't like mine. The only good things I can say about it are it seems reliable and it allows the wife to drive one of our four Subarus!
Really?! I love my 14 with the CVT. I think the CVT is the best thing since sliced bread. Only thing that I don't like about it is at the autocross I start out like a little biiih!

The WRX has a CVT. I test drove one and loved it. All spool all the time! What could be better than that?! There is a reason these things are banned from F1. The team that had it was killing it and was unfair to the teams that couldn't afford it. Also, there was a hill climb bike, I wana say in the 70s?..., that was banned because it too dominated the competition.
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Old 06-15-2016, 04:04 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonTheGreek View Post
Really?! I love my 14 with the CVT. I think the CVT is the best thing since sliced bread. Only thing that I don't like about it is at the autocross I start out like a little biiih!

The WRX has a CVT. I test drove one and loved it. All spool all the time! What could be better than that?! There is a reason these things are banned from F1. The team that had it was killing it and was unfair to the teams that couldn't afford it. Also, there was a hill climb bike, I wana say in the 70s?..., that was banned because it too dominated the competition.
May the two of you have many happy days together.

Maybe I got mine 2 years too soon.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:05 PM   #18
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They already come with a fancy auto-clutch for perfect shifting. Some call it a torque converter.

Center shifter clearly has reverse labeled R, neutral N, and all of the forward gears labeled D. With the car on, manually operate the center shifter to any of the gears.... gear.... belt?
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Old 06-17-2016, 01:34 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
This. There aren't any gears to mesh and unmesh, hence no need to disconnect the engine from the transmission.
Not entirely true. There is a planetary gear set which allows you to have a reverse range. On the 580 cvt, the power flow goes through the crank, torque converter, input clutch, planetary, primary pulley, chain, secondary pulley, etc. You have to be able to disconnect the input from the pulleys because they actually reverse direction and the chain spins backwards. Also, when you pull up to a stop, it allows the entire transmission (with the exception of the fluid pump) to stop spinning, AND it doesn't drag on the torque converter, resulting in better fuel economy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by imma_stocker View Post
They already come with a fancy auto-clutch for perfect shifting. Some call it a torque converter.

Center shifter clearly has reverse labeled R, neutral N, and all of the forward gears labeled D. With the car on, manually operate the center shifter to any of the gears.... gear.... belt?
Chain. It's a big gnarly chain.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JonTheGreek View Post
Really?! I love my 14 with the CVT. I think the CVT is the best thing since sliced bread. Only thing that I don't like about it is at the autocross I start out like a little biiih!

The WRX has a CVT. I test drove one and loved it. All spool all the time! What could be better than that?! There is a reason these things are banned from F1. The team that had it was killing it and was unfair to the teams that couldn't afford it. Also, there was a hill climb bike, I wana say in the 70s?..., that was banned because it too dominated the competition.


The Justy with a CVT didn't dominate. :sadtrombone:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3PF4fPXe9U

Here you go. They show animations of the internals in action in this video. This is the smaller CVT that is found in the Impreza/XV/Forester and 2015+ Outbacks, NOT equipped with turbos or 6 cylinders. I'm not sure if it was a 2015 change or 2016, but Subaru got negative feedback from owners about the rubber-band like acceleration. Owners used to traditional automatics didn't care for how the RPMs didn't rise and fall like a normal gearbox shifting, so Subaru changed the logic so it "shifts" now.

Last edited by CosmoTheCat; 06-17-2016 at 01:41 AM.
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