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Old 04-17-2012, 02:15 PM   #1
Emanuel
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Default RTA what tires are best for a 2005 WRX?

I recently bought a 2005 WRX to autox in STX, but I might leave it stock for a while and was wondering if anybody has had autox experience with certain tires.
With the SCCA having created the new Road tire classes, I'm trying to figure out what are good choices of tires within the rule set.
Stock WRX has 16x6.5 ET55, so available top tier street tires are:

Dunlop Star Spec:
205/50 16, 205/55 16 (OEM) 225/50 16

Bridgestone RE11:
205/45 16, 205/55 16, 225/50 16

Khumo XS:
215/45 16, 225/50 16

Hankook RS3:
205/55 16, 225/50 16 (on my car right now)

Toyo R1R
205/45 16, 205/50 16, 205/55 16, 225/45 16, 225/50 16

Continental DW:
205/45 16, 205/50 16, 205/55, 215/55 16, 225/50 16, 225/55 16

Yokohama Advan AD08:
205/55 16, 225/50 16

I currently have 225/50 16 RS3 (~24.9" Diameter, same as stock) mounted on the car, which I got used and for a good price from a friend. Now they feel awesome on the street, but lack feedback and precision in autox. (Locally I'm currently about 1 second behind r-comp equipped MS3's) Also in the last 35 autox runs, the car never got even close to the limiter.(rev limit ~67 mph in 2nd gear) And I'm dying while waiting for the turbo to spool up out of tight corners.

I have been reading Andy Hollis street tire write up http://www.facebook.com/notes/hollis...45008598916447 and according to him the limiting factor on street tires is the wheel width and there are no gains to be had from a wider tire on a small rim, unlike r-comps do.

So I guess I'm looking for more precision and a shorter gearing. I have been considering the 215/45 15 XS (23.6" dia)or the uber short 205/45 16 RE11 (23.2" dia). Both tires would probably look a little silly at stock ride height, but I have driven a similar size on my Legacy Wagon a couple years ago and the added precision and gearing did enable me to win the local Championship.



What are your thoughts? Stay with stock size? Is the RE11 worth the premium?

Thanks

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Last edited by Emanuel; 04-17-2012 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:38 PM   #2
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I don't know about the 05 in particular. But I know that the guy locally that runs STU now STX in his 07 runs Star Specs. But he is probably running a wider wheel as well. I will have to ask him next time I see him.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:47 PM   #3
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I've heard some people say good things about the XS (like, they never overheat)... but I got a chance to drive on them last year at The Mitty on the AutoX course that Kumho and the Skip Barber school had set up, and they were THE most godawful tires I've ever been on. I AutoXed a dude's MINI this weekend on Blizzaks and I think they had more grip and more predictability than the Kumhos did.

And the Toyos you want only come in "chocolate dipped" not "pure milk chocolate" version in your size The Toyo 195/50/15 is the tire to have. It's the sticky one that all the Miata guys love. The other ones have a nice soft layer that wears away and then the compound gets rock hard.

Your best bet is to get Star Specs and a water sprayer to keep them cool between runs.
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:48 PM   #4
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I've heard some people say good things about the XS (like, they never overheat)... but I got a chance to drive on them last year at The Mitty on the AutoX course that Kumho and the Skip Barber school had set up, and they were THE most godawful tires I've ever been on. I AutoXed a dude's MINI this weekend on Blizzaks and I think they had more grip and more predictability than the Kumhos did.

And the Toyos you want only come in "chocolate dipped" not "pure milk chocolate" version in your size The Toyo 195/50/15 is the tire to have. It's the sticky one that all the Miata guys love. The other ones have a nice soft layer that wears away and then the compound gets rock hard.

Your best bet is to get Star Specs and a water sprayer to keep them cool between runs.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chkltcow View Post
I've heard some people say good things about the XS (like, they never overheat)... but I got a chance to drive on them last year at The Mitty on the AutoX course that Kumho and the Skip Barber school had set up, and they were THE most godawful tires I've ever been on. I AutoXed a dude's MINI this weekend on Blizzaks and I think they had more grip and more predictability than the Kumhos did.

And the Toyos you want only come in "chocolate dipped" not "pure milk chocolate" version in your size The Toyo 195/50/15 is the tire to have. It's the sticky one that all the Miata guys love. The other ones have a nice soft layer that wears away and then the compound gets rock hard.

Your best bet is to get Star Specs and a water sprayer to keep them cool between runs.
Without having personal experience I used to dislike the XS's based on what I saw and read about them. However I was offered a co-drive at a recent event in a STF prepped Mini on 215/45 16 Khumo XSs and albeit having never driven a Mini in anger I top indexed out of 106 drivers and ended up 9th in raw time. I was incredibly surprised how talkative and easy that Mini was to drive at the limit and for a while I was doubting my choice to by a WRX.
Also a very consistent fast local driver has XS's on his Corvette Z06 (the only available tire for the size) and he has been very quick this year on those as well. For whatever reason neither of them was that quick last year, perhaps Khumo secretly changed their compound? :shrug:

As far as I know it is still unclear what Toyo sizes a fully chocolate and which are just dipped. Also as long as you don't shave too much off them, it might not even effect you locally.

My experience with Star Specs is limited and yes they are a fairly good all around tire, but have deficits on chamber challenged cars when over heated (chunking). My last car was a Miata (proper suspension) and I bought a set of SS and they were pretty good.

Despite it almost never winning a tire test and many people claiming it not being the top street tire, my personal experiences with the RE11 are outstanding. I got to drive RE11s on a WRX wagon, Legacy wagon, Z6 Corvette, Audi Quattro, Nissan 350z, Mazda RX8, Mazda Miata and a Ford Focus and took away 3 fastest times of the day and 4 top index and 2 top raw and index times combined, in various conditions. There seems to be some magic going on. Perhaps it is the fact that Bridgestone tires are made in layers of ever softer material the closer you get to the carcass.
Most people I talked too report having gotten over 200 competitive autox runs + street use. There was a local guy that basically dominated our local STX class on the same set of tires for over 1.5 years in his RX8.
Also RE11 are very quiet on the street unlike RS3s, Azenis and Star Specs. (don't know about the XS)
To tell you the truth I'm very tempted to just buy the 205/45 16 RE11 and see what happens.

Excuse my detailed post, but apperantly thats where the devil is, in the detail.

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Old 04-17-2012, 04:46 PM   #6
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The RE-11 is a good tire if you can keep it cool(have a sprayer ready). When I ran them on my 09, the last run of a heat was always a throw away if it was above 80°. Co-driving, you'll torch them into worthlessnes. You seem to have enough experience to make an informed decision, but most Subaru guys run Dunlops for reason. I've seen the chunking issue occur to a couple people, but know too many others that have run them with no problems, including myself. As noted, the best allrounder. Toyo is a non-starter for 3K+ lb. cars, and the XS' are the worst DD tire I've used in quite a long time(suck cold, suck wet, noisey as hell).

Edit: Just put the name with the location and remember seeing the car at your first event in March......looks good(I miss my 05). Upper Midwest......stay with the Dunlops, unless you think it's the concrete site you guys run at showing a pattern across different cars chunking them(?).

To add more. Getting a short tire will really help that car, but I wouldn't touch the XS as noted. I remember running the uber short 215/40/16 RT-215 Azenis my first year autox'ing and those tires were awesome on the car........huge wheel gap though. I didin't care as I was winning on them. 225's look like the place to stay in DS, though you won't be there long, as STX WILL come calling......I held out for 2/3rds of the season before moving on to 17x8's, lol.

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Old 04-17-2012, 05:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskenraider View Post
The RE-11 is a good tire if you can keep it cool(have a sprayer ready). When I ran them on my 09, the last run of a heat was always a throw away if it was above 80°. Co-driving, you'll torch them into worthlessnes. You seem to have enough experience to make an informed decision, but most Subaru guys run Dunlops for reason. I've seen the chunking issue occur to a couple people, but know too many others that have run them with no problems, including myself. As noted, the best allrounder. Toyo is a non-starter for 3K+ lb. cars, and the XS' are the worst DD tire I've used in quite a long time(suck cold, suck wet, noisey as hell).

Edit: Just put the name with the location and remember seeing the car at your first event in March......looks good(I miss my 05). Upper Midwest......stay with the Dunlops, unless you think it's the concrete site you guys run at showing a pattern across different cars chunking them(?).
If I put 2 and 2 together there was only one red WRX at the March event. If so and you had an '05, we need to sit together sometime and I gotta pick your brain.

Thanks for your input so far.

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Old 04-17-2012, 05:28 PM   #8
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I'll definately try to make it down to Rantoul again this year and can chat with you about setup or whatever, or just shoot me a PM if you'd like. Cheers.

Wayne Onyschuk
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:51 PM   #9
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One tire you haven't mention is the Federal RS-Rs. Its comparable if not better than the Star Spec. Cheaper too.
You'll need to spray them too in the heat.

Ultimately you'll be camber challenged with whatever tire you choose.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:57 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by CGMDan View Post
One tire you haven't mention is the Federal RS-Rs. Its comparable if not better than the Star Spec. Cheaper too.
You'll need to spray them too in the heat.
Yeah, I saw lot of chest thumping about it in the tire forum a year ago with no competitive results to back it up. If it was really any good, it woulda already been "discovered" by those looking for the next best thing.
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel View Post
perhaps Khumo secretly changed their compound? :shrug:
This. My fiance's father owns a tire shop, and this past winter I noticed all his vehicles didn't have hakkapellita's on them

The tire in question; the kumho kw22 came out of nowhere. He claimed it to be equivalent to the hakkapellita for a fraction of the cost. Looking up the KW22 on google seemed to support his 25 years of experience.

http://www.rehvid.com/public/files/k...st_results.pdf

I am DEFINITELY checking out kumho's summer lineup this year!
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Old 04-18-2012, 01:00 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskenraider View Post
Yeah, I saw lot of chest thumping about it in the tire forum a year ago with no competitive results to back it up. If it was really any good, it woulda already been "discovered" by those looking for the next best thing.
I don't know why more people haven't tried them. When I was at tour last year some previous natl champions said unless there was a contigency, they weren't worth it. But the also said that they've heard they are good tires, but haven't seen anyone they "trust" run them.
I think some may be waiting for the regional only people to try them, and the regional guys are waiting for the national guys to try them. I don't know.

But look at thee Star Specs, they aren't competitive at the national level any more but lots of people still run them.

I'll still tell anyone that looking at StarSpecs to look at the RS-Rs.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:31 AM   #13
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But look at thee Star Specs, they aren't competitive at the national level any more but lots of people still run them.
What are you talking about? Yeah the miata's and spec civak love the unicorn magic pixie dust 195 toyo's, but in STU, it is basically a spec Dunlop class. At the 2 tours this year, every STU car was on dunlops. In STR dunlop shod cars have trophied at both tours this year. At nationals last year, every single STU trophy went to a dunlop shod car. 404 non-competitiveness not found.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:47 AM   #14
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^^^ What he said.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:04 AM   #15
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Dunlops are awesome. Too bad they are creeping up in price the last couple of years. I would try the Federals on an ST-car that may not brutalize a tire as much as a camber-challenged RT* car...they are cheap, and if nothing else the tread looks like it may evacuate water well, and could be a rain tire or daily-driven tire if it's not an acceptable dry tire.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:27 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel View Post
and albeit having never driven a Mini in anger I top indexed out of 106 drivers and ended up 9th in raw time. I was incredibly surprised how talkative and easy that Mini was to drive at the limit and for a while I was doubting my choice to by a WRX.
As well you should doubt it While I'll readily admit my MINI isn't quite as fun to AutoX as my Miata, it is a RIDICULOUSLY competitive car.... even on the OE Conti Sport Contact 3 runflats that came on it.

Quote:
For whatever reason neither of them was that quick last year, perhaps Khumo secretly changed their compound? :shrug:
That's definitely a possibility. I drove on them about a year ago... end of April. They just made me cringe with the lack of grip and responsiveness back then. If things have changed, I might be willing to jump in a car and try them again, but nothing anyone can say or write is gonna convince me to buy a set quite yet.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:55 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel View Post
I currently have 225/50 16 RS3 (~24.9" Diameter, same as stock) mounted on the car, which I got used and for a good price from a friend. Now they feel awesome on the street, but lack feedback and precision in autox.
Emanual, I talked to you a little bit at the first Rantoul event (Black 05 STX WRX) and some of the feedback/precision you're lacking could be due to the oversized tire on the 6.5" wheel. One of the things Andy's tire guide talks about is lack of feel and feedback when squeezing a street tire. Personally I've run a 235/45 on a 17x7 and a 225/45 on a 17x7 and 17x8. From a feedback perspective matching the tire size really seems to help.

Due to R-S3 tire shortages, a few weeks ago I replaced my 225/45/17 R-S3 with 245/40 Star Specs (17x8 wheel) and I've been pleased with the feedback the Star Specs give. Comparing overall grip is difficult at this point. (Event 1 at gateway was with dead R-S3's. good grip lot) (Event 2 at Family Arena is very dirty and a more slippery surface, but fresh Star Specs).

Honestly, I don't think you could go wrong with either R-S3's or Star Specs. If availability wasn't an issue, I would have bought R-S3's again. I've autocrossed a stock R-Spec Genesis on RE-11's multiple times and felt the the R-S3's were equal or better. Not worth the extra money to buy the RE-11's (my opinion).

Last edited by KMScooby; 04-18-2012 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:57 AM   #18
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Star Spec tires are great for Auto-X
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:13 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2JZ View Post
This. My fiance's father owns a tire shop, and this past winter I noticed all his vehicles didn't have hakkapellita's on them

The tire in question; the kumho kw22 came out of nowhere. He claimed it to be equivalent to the hakkapellita for a fraction of the cost. Looking up the KW22 on google seemed to support his 25 years of experience.

http://www.rehvid.com/public/files/k...st_results.pdf

I am DEFINITELY checking out kumho's summer lineup this year!
I'm not sure if there is a straight relationship between winter tire and max performance tire compound. But it may well be possible that Khumo discovered something new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CGMDan View Post
One tire you haven't mention is the Federal RS-Rs. Its comparable if not better than the Star Spec. Cheaper too.
You'll need to spray them too in the heat.

Ultimately you'll be camber challenged with whatever tire you choose.
They are less than 1/2 the price of RE11s, so an entire set shipped to my house for $400 total, may be worth trying out. And unlike the RE11 you can flip these, which will help with even wear on a camber challenged car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illini_STi View Post
What are you talking about? Yeah the miata's and spec civak love the unicorn magic pixie dust 195 toyo's, but in STU, it is basically a spec Dunlop class. At the 2 tours this year, every STU car was on dunlops. In STR dunlop shod cars have trophied at both tours this year. At nationals last year, every single STU trophy went to a dunlop shod car. 404 non-competitiveness not found.
I absolutely agree Dunlops currently are the tire to have when driving a Subie in ST. I just wonder if the same is true for a stock car on stock size wheels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chkltcow View Post
As well you should doubt it While I'll readily admit my MINI isn't quite as fun to AutoX as my Miata, it is a RIDICULOUSLY competitive car.... even on the OE Conti Sport Contact 3 runflats that came on it.

That's definitely a possibility. I drove on them about a year ago... end of April. They just made me cringe with the lack of grip and responsiveness back then. If things have changed, I might be willing to jump in a car and try them again, but nothing anyone can say or write is gonna convince me to buy a set quite yet.
My WRX was actually nearly a straight trade for a 1997 R package Miata and the reason for that was the Miata's lack of power and practicality. On daily driving the WRX is worlds apart from the tiny, rough and loud Miata, now I have to cope with the WRX shortcomings at autox.
As for the Mini, my buddy has a Cooper S and it is very similar to the WRX on the street, but there was no way I would've found a good one for the price I paid for the WRX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMScooby View Post
Emanuel, I talked to you a little bit at the first Rantoul event (Black 05 STX WRX) and some of the feedback/precision you're lacking could be due to the oversized tire on the 6.5" wheel. One of the things Andy's tire guide talks about is lack of feel and feedback when squeezing a street tire. Personally I've run a 235/45 on a 17x7 and a 225/45 on a 17x7 and 17x8. From a feedback perspective matching the tire size really seems to help.

Due to R-S3 tire shortages, a few weeks ago I replaced my 225/45/17 R-S3 with 245/40 Star Specs (17x8 wheel) and I've been pleased with the feedback the Star Specs give. Comparing overall grip is difficult at this point. (Event 1 at gateway was with dead R-S3's. good grip lot) (Event 2 at Family Arena is very dirty and a more slippery surface, but fresh Star Specs).

Honestly, I don't think you could go wrong with either R-S3's or Star Specs. If availability wasn't an issue, I would have bought R-S3's again. I've autocrossed a stock R-Spec Genesis on RE-11's multiple times and felt the the R-S3's were equal or better. Not worth the extra money to buy the RE-11's (my opinion).
You're defenitely right KM, the 225/50's were a result of an opportunity that was too good to pass up, despite knowing some of the downsides.
As far as the differences between RS3's and RE11's go, I'm still tending towards RE11.
In fact at this spoint of the discussion I'm tempted to not wait for the current tires to die and just get a second set of 16x6.5 wheels and get a super short tire on it, so I can compare the difference directly. The RE11s and the Federal RSR's are available in 205/45 16, the federals costing less than 1/2 shipped. No risk, no fun, right.

On the other hand the car needs a T belt done, the turbo hesitation figured out, a CV shaft and the LFCA bushings replaced and then I need to maximize the alignment. So first things first.

I thank all of you for your imput, keep it going.

Last edited by Emanuel; 04-18-2012 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:36 AM   #20
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If you're set on running street tires you may want to consider STX sooner rather than later. From an index perspective you're looking at .822(stx) and .821(DS). On a 30second course, a difference of .030seconds. If you do choose to buy another set of wheels anyway, why not go to 17x8 and 245/40-17 tires.

Just a thought since you wont be giving up too much in terms of how competitive you will be from the start and plenty of overhead as you begin developing the car.
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Old 04-18-2012, 02:46 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by KMScooby View Post
If you're set on running street tires you may want to consider STX sooner rather than later. From an index perspective you're looking at .822(stx) and .821(DS). On a 30second course, a difference of .030seconds. If you do choose to buy another set of wheels anyway, why not go to 17x8 and 245/40-17 tires.

Just a thought since you wont be giving up too much in terms of how competitive you will be from the start and plenty of overhead as you begin developing the car.
Right and wrong. As I said before the devil is in the detail. Right now I'm not sure if I actually want to go Street touring, as I really like how the car behaves on daily driving. Extensive ST mods, will most likely ruin some of that. I also have an extremely limited budget. So for this season I think apart from just fixing the car, I'm just looking for some low hanging fruit.

Lets talk detail. This is a comparison of the current wheel, your suggestion and the idea that started this thread.


Thanks http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp

So going for the expensive ($1500) option of lightweight 17x8 wheels with 245/40 17 Dunlop tires, may not be that much faster, if at all then the current setup. Because the whole combination is most likely not much lighter and there is almost zero gear reduction. So in oder to use the full potential of these tires I would need to find more power and install extensive suspension upgrades. Without that it appears like a waste of money to me.
However there are a couple Subarus at our local club, and I'm sure I can talk somebody with that wheel/tire setup, into co-driving with me using their wheels on my car. That way we can find out if it would really be faster or not.

On the other hand I can get some 16x6.5 wheels for less than $200 and as previously mentioned a set of brand new 205/45 16 RSR tires for $400 shipped. The gearing reduction these tires would provide is almost 10%. That means the car would top out in second gear around 60 mph (nearly perfect), it would brake better, accelerate faster and with the better wheel width to tire width ratio provide the better feedback and precision I'm looking for, all while the car itself is still absolutely stock. The down sides are less contact patch and lots of heat in the smaller tires, requiring cooling.

Somehow the idea of having a quite, plain looking, stock car that is faster then many modified cars facinates me. I know I'm kinda weird like that and many people told me that they have issues to follow my logic there. But in my mind once you go street touring/prepared/modified you kinda have to committ fully to the extend of the particular class and some of the magic is gone.
Not to mention that it is much harder to get your invested money back for modified cars. So far I haven't owned a car longer than 4 years, so resale value is somewhat important to me. Buy cheap and protect your asset. So far I was almost always able to recover most of my investements and it never took me longer than 3 weeks to sell any particular car, once the sell decision was definite.
Also keeping the car stock and having a known source of take off r-comps within our local club, lets me cheaply play with the car in regular stock class occasionally.

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Old 04-18-2012, 03:41 PM   #22
KMScooby
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If you're going to be playing on R-Comps from time to time Sticking with the stock wheels is the way to go. Especially if a tight budget is taken into consideration. If you're able to find someone with wheels locally that you can give a try, that would be ideal. Personally, I would expect the cornering advantage would overcome the gearing advantage. If you do some of the STX power mods it's definitely the better route. Wheel/tire weights would be nearly a wash with wheels much less than $1500. Looking at weight, 225/50-16 = 245/40-17. Not trying to sell the idea, but I think the negatives are less than you're expecting.

If we decide to make another trip up or if you ever come down to St Louis we can trade some rides/drives and see what we think of the different options/setups first hand.
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:49 PM   #23
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The gearing is attractive for the 205's, but with almost 3200# on them, they will take serious abuse. I bet it can be fairly quick with them, but be prepared to spray them to death and rotate them every event as is normally done. They'll likely heat cycle out before they run out of usable tread.
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Old 04-18-2012, 04:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskenraider View Post
The gearing is attractive for the 205's, but with almost 3200# on them, they will take serious abuse. I bet it can be fairly quick with them, but be prepared to spray them to death and rotate them every event as is normally done. They'll likely heat cycle out before they run out of usable tread.
You're maybe right, but ran 205/50 16 Goodyear Eagle tires on my '96 Legacy Wagon (almost the same weight), using 16x6.5 Beetle wheels, before I had a clue about classing and they did pretty well in terms of heat and staying useful for quiete some time.
And then there is always Formula V, right?
I think given the possible advantages it may very well worth trying. In the worst case scenario they are slower that what I have right now. And if so I just sell them to NB Miata/Mr Spider guys to run around on the street. That way I may loose $200. But what if the lower gearing makes more than up for the deficits in cornering and the car is actually fast enough to beat local r-comp guys? Wouldn't that be something? And if the cheap Federals do it, then the RE11 would probably be even much better.


KM,

I do plan on visiting you guys in STL this year and off course you're always welcome at our events. May 19 and 20 we have our spring grudge matches, that is always alot of fun.

Emanuel
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:59 AM   #25
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Star Specs are confident inspiring ... very nice and progressive at the limit. Doesn't matter if one tire is slightly faster then another tire if a newbie can't take advantage of it.
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