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Old 11-30-2016, 06:04 AM   #1
teddysx3
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Default Stage 2 with no tune?

Hello guys, i have a question. I'm going to go and install my stage 2 parts, Cobb downpipe, catless uppipe, and a grimspeed selenoid. My question is, when i install them, can i start the car, and just move it out of the shop where they installed my parts, so i can reflash the car, not drive it, but just move it to the side of the shop and flash it there? I have read people even drive with no tune, i just want to move it. Is it going to hurt my engine in any way? Thanks guys.
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Old 11-30-2016, 06:22 AM   #2
rtv900
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yes you can start it to just move the car a short distance.

but just curious, are the guys at the shop really going to be that upset if you want to sit in the car for 3 minutes while you flash the tune before moving it out?
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Old 11-30-2016, 06:47 AM   #3
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if you are that worried... just push it out of the shop.
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:26 AM   #4
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If you have a 2002/2003 you do not need a tune for a downpipe, so you'd be fine. (Though better off with a tune obviously)
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:35 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
yes you can start it to just move the car a short distance.

but just curious, are the guys at the shop really going to be that upset if you want to sit in the car for 3 minutes while you flash the tune before moving it out?
Well i have to make the ECU bootable, and install my Grimspeed selenoid lol. I just want to work with no pressure. Thanks for the answer
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:36 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by HinshawWRX View Post
If you have a 2002/2003 you do not need a tune for a downpipe, so you'd be fine. (Though better off with a tune obviously)
I have a 2004 WRX, I know its best to put a tune, performance wise ofc..but safety also..
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Old 11-30-2016, 01:03 PM   #7
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You have a MAF-based system that can deal with the mods you have.

The Stage 2 mapping does very little - it raises the boost a hair and pulls a little fuel from the high-load area of the open loop fuel map.

In other words, the Stage 2 map will make a little more power but the OEM map is actually easier on the motor. You need to tune the GS solenoid regardless - neither the Stage 2 OTS map, nor the OEM map will be able to accurately control it.
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Old 11-30-2016, 04:10 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by teddysx3 View Post
Well i have to make the ECU bootable, and install my Grimspeed selenoid lol. I just want to work with no pressure. Thanks for the answer

Stage 2 OTS wont help you with the Grimspeed EBCS. You'll need to adjust the wastegate duty cycle yourself or have it tuned.
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Old 11-30-2016, 10:33 PM   #9
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Lol I ran a front mount intercooler, td05 20g, catless downpipe, short ram intake, fuel pump, and a manual boost controller for 3 months untuned. You'll be fine. If anything you'll need to remove the ecbs till your ready for a tune.

These cars are more forgiving than many believe them to be. I went on to get tuned and still put down great numbers, no head gasket problems, nothing. Zero issues.
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Old 12-01-2016, 02:31 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by GK1707 View Post
Stage 2 OTS wont help you with the Grimspeed EBCS. You'll need to adjust the wastegate duty cycle yourself or have it tuned.
Yes yes, i will get a e-tune from iA Performance due to the lack of tuners where i live...i will have it ready i just need to flash it outside the shop . THanks for the info
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:44 PM   #11
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Use stag 2 map with ebcs
Not optimal but close enough
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Old 12-01-2016, 08:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teddysx3 View Post
Yes yes, i will get a e-tune from iA Performance due to the lack of tuners where i live...i will have it ready i just need to flash it outside the shop . THanks for the info
I don't know how you can possibly e-tune a boost control map accurately...

This is a time consuming process but it's easy enough to do.
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Old 12-01-2016, 09:12 PM   #13
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the bcs keeps you're boost from going threw the roof. It's a limiter.

For those who say you'll be just fine with an OTS map or without a tune, well that's just ridiculous. My only opinion for that would be you weren't hitting target boost to begin with/boost leak or some other boost mitigating factor.

If you absolutely have to drive, do not go into boost, there will be no limiter for you're turbo, may see 60psi who knows.or do what someone else said and disconnect it until you get the etune
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Old 12-01-2016, 09:13 PM   #14
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Default Stage 2 with no tune?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
I don't know how you can possibly e-tune a boost control map accurately...



This is a time consuming process but it's easy enough to do.

With the WGDC's, it depends on wastegate pressure etc
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Old 12-02-2016, 01:07 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by jblocka View Post
the bcs keeps you're boost from going threw the roof. It's a limiter.
You clearly don't understand what the solenoid does - the solenoid is a PWM bleed device to allow you to raise boost beyond wastegate pressure. The restrictor orifice in the compressor outlet reference line is there for the same reason. With the boost solenoid completely disabled or the restrictor orifice removed, you'll actually be running a lower peak boost pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jblocka View Post
For those who say you'll be just fine with an OTS map or without a tune, well that's just ridiculous. My only opinion for that would be you weren't hitting target boost to begin with/boost leak or some other boost mitigating factor.
Ridiculous is regurgitating BS recommendations based on forum chatter rather than basing them on real-world experience, or at a minimum, a basic understanding of the system in question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jblocka View Post
If you absolutely have to drive, do not go into boost, there will be no limiter for you're turbo, may see 60psi who knows.or do what someone else said and disconnect it until you get the etune
Again, clearly demonstrating your lack of real-world experience with this topic. The boost control maps in the OEM Subaru ECU are closed loop systems. Even if you pinned the WGDC at 90% (OEM maximum value), you would not hit 60 psi with an OEM bleed solenoid - it's not possible as the wastegate is still connected to a boost reference line. You would probably overboost... but this is all based on an imaginary scenario where there is no target boost with a PID feedback loop.

With a 3-port solenoid, a high WGDC *could* cut the wastegate off from the reference line... this could potentially spike the boost, but most OEM Subaru by-pass valves on the intercooler have an over-boost protection built in. This is why the OEM BPV needs to be modified or replaced for aftermarket turbos running much higher boost pressures than stock (anything above ~25 psi or so, on E-marked BPVs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jblocka View Post
With the WGDC's, it depends on wastegate pressure etc
You're missing the point or need to study up on how the system (electronic and mechanical) functions.

To tune the boost control on a Subaru, you need to perform pulls at clamped TPS breakpoints, logging fixed WGDC against boost pressure. The reason this takes time is you would typically run through about 7-8 TPS positions and 7-8 WGDC each. My regular procedure is as follows:

TPS axis values = 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, and 80
WGDC increments = 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, 90

Clamp throttle at 15% @ WOT and do one log each at each WGDC breakpoint.
Clamp throttle at 20% @ WOT and do one log each at each WGDC breakpoint.
...and so on.

Once you ever approach target peak boost, you may need to limit the WGDC on future pulls or past a certain RPM. You can also bring it up by 5-10% rather than the full 15% on the next pull. This all sounds confusing, but in practice, it just takes time - it's very easy and as long as you monitor peak boost and actually LOG the data, you'll optimize the turbo dynamics without issue.

The real-world testing involved with this is why e-tunes aren't worth the money... by the time you've provided the logs the tuner actually needs, you've done 90% of the work yourself, already. A tuner can e-tune based on other cars and get you close, but it would still be the equivalent of a base map.

Here's an example of a 15% TPS, 90% WGDC pull:



You'll notice the peak RPM never exceeds 4414 RPM at 15% clamped throttle, and the boost solenoid (INJ5) never actually does anything as boost does not exceed activation pressure (110 kPa) at 15% throttle. This means that from 0-4500 RPM, the 15% TPS column in the initial position table can effectively be anything - the solenoid will not play a part in boost control until higher throttle positions.

Before anyone asks, the reason the boost solenoid does not (and should not) activate until 101.3 kPa or so (I chose 110 kPa), is that below atmospheric pressure, an open boost solenoid will actually suck in air through the compressor outlet nipple. If you are running MAF-based fueling, this isn't a big deal; if you've converted to speed density and/or vented the solenoid to atmosphere, you would be sucking in unfiltered air.

Last edited by mrsaturn7085; 12-02-2016 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 12-02-2016, 10:38 AM   #16
teddysx3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
I don't know how you can possibly e-tune a boost control map accurately...

This is a time consuming process but it's easy enough to do.

Hi, well e-tuner will send me a safe base map at first and then i will make some pull and send him the logs and he will tune it as close as possible. My idea is to have a safe tune with a little performance upgrade, but safety first. Im putting those mods for sound mostly and a little performance, so i guess and e-tune will work for me. Its just i need someone that knows whats going on in the ECU to tune it safely for the mods im putting. I dont want to blow my motor or ect. Its a bit expensive just for a little correction in the map but oh well.
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Old 12-02-2016, 12:15 PM   #17
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If he locks the tune (most tuners will), how will you make clamped throttle pulls? If all you care about is optimizing the WOT boost response, I guess that will suffice.
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Old 12-02-2016, 01:25 PM   #18
jblocka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
You clearly don't understand what the solenoid does - the solenoid is a PWM bleed device to allow you to raise boost beyond wastegate pressure. The restrictor orifice in the compressor outlet reference line is there for the same reason. With the boost solenoid completely disabled or the restrictor orifice removed, you'll actually be running a lower peak boost pressure.



Ridiculous is regurgitating BS recommendations based on forum chatter rather than basing them on real-world experience, or at a minimum, a basic understanding of the system in question.



Again, clearly demonstrating your lack of real-world experience with this topic. The boost control maps in the OEM Subaru ECU are closed loop systems. Even if you pinned the WGDC at 90% (OEM maximum value), you would not hit 60 psi with an OEM bleed solenoid - it's not possible as the wastegate is still connected to a boost reference line. You would probably overboost... but this is all based on an imaginary scenario where there is no target boost with a PID feedback loop.

With a 3-port solenoid, a high WGDC *could* cut the wastegate off from the reference line... this could potentially spike the boost, but most OEM Subaru by-pass valves on the intercooler have an over-boost protection built in. This is why the OEM BPV needs to be modified or replaced for aftermarket turbos running much higher boost pressures than stock (anything above ~25 psi or so, on E-marked BPVs).



You're missing the point or need to study up on how the system (electronic and mechanical) functions.

To tune the boost control on a Subaru, you need to perform pulls at clamped TPS breakpoints, logging fixed WGDC against boost pressure. The reason this takes time is you would typically run through about 7-8 TPS positions and 7-8 WGDC each. My regular procedure is as follows:

TPS axis values = 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, and 80
WGDC increments = 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, 90

Clamp throttle at 15% @ WOT and do one log each at each WGDC breakpoint.
Clamp throttle at 20% @ WOT and do one log each at each WGDC breakpoint.
...and so on.

Once you ever approach target peak boost, you may need to limit the WGDC on future pulls or past a certain RPM. You can also bring it up by 5-10% rather than the full 15% on the next pull. This all sounds confusing, but in practice, it just takes time - it's very easy and as long as you monitor peak boost and actually LOG the data, you'll optimize the turbo dynamics without issue.

The real-world testing involved with this is why e-tunes aren't worth the money... by the time you've provided the logs the tuner actually needs, you've done 90% of the work yourself, already. A tuner can e-tune based on other cars and get you close, but it would still be the equivalent of a base map.

Here's an example of a 15% TPS, 90% WGDC pull:



You'll notice the peak RPM never exceeds 4414 RPM at 15% clamped throttle, and the boost solenoid (INJ5) never actually does anything as boost does not exceed activation pressure (110 kPa) at 15% throttle. This means that from 0-4500 RPM, the 15% TPS column in the initial position table can effectively be anything - the solenoid will not play a part in boost control until higher throttle positions.

Before anyone asks, the reason the boost solenoid does not (and should not) activate until 101.3 kPa or so (I chose 110 kPa), is that below atmospheric pressure, an open boost solenoid will actually suck in air through the compressor outlet nipple. If you are running MAF-based fueling, this isn't a big deal; if you've converted to speed density and/or vented the solenoid to atmosphere, you would be sucking in unfiltered air.

you're right my fault, sometimes I read the stickies and apply that to what I know, and it's not always the best answers
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Old 12-02-2016, 05:21 PM   #19
mrsaturn7085
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Originally Posted by jblocka View Post
you're right my fault, sometimes I read the stickies and apply that to what I know, and it's not always the best answers
Unfortunately, most of the stickies on this forum are in serious need of an overhaul. Deleting some of them outright would be even better.
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Old 02-01-2017, 05:26 PM   #20
GK1707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jblocka View Post
the bcs keeps you're boost from going threw the roof. It's a limiter.

For those who say you'll be just fine with an OTS map or without a tune, well that's just ridiculous.

I did it, and hit my target boost perfectly fine. I used the OTS map as a base and then tuned the WGDC's accordingly to my car. It's not rocket science to tune for a EBCS on an otherwise stock car.....
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Old 02-01-2017, 07:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teddysx3 View Post
I have a 2004 WRX, I know its best to put a tune, performance wise ofc..but safety also..
i also have a 2004 wrx but i put my tune on the car before i started it just to be safe when i went stage 2
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Old 02-01-2017, 07:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teddysx3 View Post
Hello guys, i have a question. I'm going to go and install my stage 2 parts, Cobb downpipe, catless uppipe, and a grimspeed selenoid. My question is, when i install them, can i start the car, and just move it out of the shop where they installed my parts, so i can reflash the car, not drive it, but just move it to the side of the shop and flash it there? I have read people even drive with no tune, i just want to move it. Is it going to hurt my engine in any way? Thanks guys.
i wouldnt do it but thats just me
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