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Old 04-10-2013, 01:45 PM   #1
MeltedOutback
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Default recommend me some track pads!

the track-day and autoX season is fast approaching and I'm finally assembling all of my mods for the season.

'04 FXT (284whp / 302ft/lbs on Force Engineering's Mustang dyno)
02-03 WRX sedan take-off suspension (these will hopefully be replaced with adjustable struts and different spring)
225/45-17 Hoosier R6's (track and large autox) and 235/45-17 Z1 star specs (wet and/or small autox, DD)
STi RSB, probably upgrade to ~27mm adjustable sways front and rear
legacy GT calipers/rotors and braided stainless lines, ATE fluid, etc.
probably throw on MC brace...

Last season I was on stock rotors (fresh) rotors, stock calipers, and Hawk HP+ pads all around. It sucked. The HP+'s were fine for autoX, but I would have significant brake fade after only a couple laps, and my rotors had stress cracks after my first track day :-/ Front pads were ~50% after ~15k, ~5 track days, ~8 autoX

So I decided to get some much larger brakes (didn't have money for Brembo's) but now I'm wondering what pads would be good for my set-up. My main focus is fade resistance and long(er) life at the track, I don't have a problem switching to a cheap pad for DD and autoX (the car will primarily be for track use during the summer, and winter beater with cheap pads for the winter)

I'm thinking Carbotech XP10 front and rear, but if XP8, etc. would be enough fade resistant and/or better life I would like to go that route

any other suggestions?
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:59 PM   #2
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if you don't want to change pads for the street, for sure go with xp10. if not, I like pfc 01 on that skinny tire. prepare for many opinions
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:41 PM   #3
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Hawk DTC 60s have been working pretty well for me. Ferodo is also good stuff from what I gather.

The guys at KNS brakes can help you pick a good set. Ive had good experiences with them and they're very competitive price wise.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:22 PM   #4
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If you're willing to swap at the track days, then XP12's front and XP10's rear. Carbotech rates the compound by what the weight of the car is they're trying to stop. XP8's are for 2,400 lbs and below, XP10's are 2,400 to 2,800, XP12's are 2,800 to 3,200 (this is all from memory talking to Carbotech about a lemons car).

The HP+'s are great for autox and I've used them for years. I'd also be willing to try the Carbotech AX6's as a lot of my friends run them and are happy.

But stopping a big Forester at the tail end of a 20 or 30 minute session needs some "real" track pads and a good DOT4 fluid.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoidRage View Post
Hawk DTC 60s have been working pretty well for me. Ferodo is also good stuff from what I gather.

The guys at KNS brakes can help you pick a good set. Ive had good experiences with them and they're very competitive price wise.
I was planning on ordering from KNS, I'll shoot them an email to see what they recommend as well.

I liked the HP+'s for the street and autoX, but they aren't cutting it for the track (I'm guessing this is mostly because of tiny stock rotors)

I had HP+ all around with braided lines on my turbo del Sol and I wouldn't get fade until ~20min into a session, and that was only on DOT3 fluid...

Keep the suggestions coming guys!

As for tires; considering that the forester wants to do a barrel roll in the corners, the star specs (new last summer) held up very well, but I definitely tore them up being to the floor on the brakes into corners, and slipping and sliding on the way out.

I run intermediate run groups at Waterford hills and Gingerman and regularly get around z06's, Elise's, GT500's, etc
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:12 PM   #6
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I run the DTC60's all around, DBA 4000 with Motul 660 and brake cooling ducks stock brembo 2011 sti calibers
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:28 AM   #7
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KNS is definitely worth contacting. As for the DTC-60 recommendations, I'm personally a bit weary. I tried the 30s, and they needed to be warmed up for street use. Then on track, they still crapped all over my rotors (with cooling ducts). I'd expect the 60s to hold up on track, but I would expect you need to warm them up whenever you start driving, or any time you've been on the highway for a little while. I tried quite a few pads to find something for use on the street all summer without having to change them at the track, and I was finally starting to believe everyone telling me it wasn't possible. Then I tried the Carbone-Lorraine RC5s. With Star Specs and stiffer suspension, they hold up just fine. They never need warming up on the street, and the only reason I swap them out in the winter is to be nicer to my winter tires. With Hoosiers, you may need the RC6, but I believe they are also supposed to have great cold bite.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:39 AM   #8
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Yep, CL makes really good pads, and the RC6 does have reasonable cold bite, but they are really hard on the rotors before they're warmed up. I don't think they make those in your shapes though. DTC60 or DS3000 maybe XP10 (although I don't know much about carbotech's pads) would be my suggestions.

And WRX suspension and an sti swaybar is WAYYY too soft for hoosiers. You'll also want to pull the crossmember spacers so the suspension geometry isn't completely ruined.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:34 AM   #9
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I'm not even going to bother trying to find a pad to work for track and street; track pads and new rotors are too damn expensive to go that route, I'll just throw on stoptech street or hps pads for dd/autox

I think from these suggestions I'm leaning toward XP12/XP10 combo as I've heard many good things about carbotech (from serious track-day Honda guys, and many other applications)

Quote:
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Yep, CL makes really good pads, and the RC6 does have reasonable cold bite, but they are really hard on the rotors before they're warmed up. I don't think they make those in your shapes though. DTC60 or DS3000 maybe XP10 (although I don't know much about carbotech's pads) would be my suggestions.

And WRX suspension and an sti swaybar is WAYYY too soft for hoosiers. You'll also want to pull the crossmember spacers so the suspension geometry isn't completely ruined.
I don't think I'll have the coin for new struts this year, but I'm going to atleast get STi/GF210/etc springs, new tophats, and bigger sways. I don't want to pull subframe spacers until I get different springs because the COG is already pretty high

forgot to mention; STi aluminum control arms with homemade caster plates will also be going on shortly

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Old 04-11-2013, 02:32 PM   #10
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Pulling the subframe spacers doesn't change your CG or ride height. Just fixes the suspension geometry after you put on wrx springs. It will actually reduce body roll too.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:42 PM   #11
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You should be fine on XP10s. While 12's have great bite, they are much tougher on rotors in my experience.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:15 PM   #12
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Why R6s and not A6s? On the SCCA club cars we have switched from R6s to A6s and since you're autocrossing to begin with why would you need R6? I understand that if you were road racing a forester you might need R6s for the heat of slowing down that beast but ... the performance should be very poor until they're warm vs. the A6

At the 2012 runoffs in our field 90% of the cars with hoosiers (again probably 90%) were running A6
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:21 PM   #13
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Why R6s and not A6s? On the SCCA club cars we have switched from R6s to A6s and since you're autocrossing to begin with why would you need R6? I understand that if you were road racing a forester you might need R6s for the heat of slowing down that beast but ... the performance should be very poor until they're warm vs. the A6

At the 2012 runoffs in our field 90% of the cars with hoosiers (again probably 90%) were running A6


He said he's tracking the car, in addition to autox. Running A6's at HPDEs would be assinine. Hell, I find R6s at track days to bea complete waste. Completely different from competitive road racing.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Pulling the subframe spacers doesn't change your CG or ride height. Just fixes the suspension geometry after you put on wrx springs. It will actually reduce body roll too.
from what I've seen on SF.org (and makes sense to me) is that removing the subframe spacers will 'drop' the subframe, but since the struts remain fixed; the front clip will be raised the amount of the spacers. I've only seen guys remove the spacers after substantial drops, and paired with saggy butt spacer, recover some more fender-to-wheel clearance.
I realize that most of the front end weight is the powertrain; but I don't want to get the 'ol polar bear higher in the sky than she already is....
jamal; if you have more info on this I would love to see it, since I'll be in there to do control arms, possible steering rack bushings anyways... free mods (like free caster and plates) are my favorite!

I talked to Nick at KNS today and he recommend XP12 front and XP10 rear. I'm hoping to make it through all of this season's events on these rotors, if I can use this set-up again next year; even better

Quote:
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He said he's tracking the car, in addition to autox. Running A6's at HPDEs would be assinine. Hell, I find R6s at track days to bea complete waste. Completely different from competitive road racing.
exactly: R6's for track use.

I usually autoX with the Furrin group, and they set some some FAST autoX tracks, so I may try the hoosiers if it is hot enough. I tried the R6's at an event at the end of the season; I won't make that mistake again, haha.

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:58 PM   #15
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a6 are way faster than r6 and the same price. I also see about the same life because A6 run pretty good to the cords and R6 can heat cycle out pretty bad. so why go with a slower tire?
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:25 PM   #16
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DTC-70s I like a little better than the 60s, I feel I can threshold brake a little more aggressiveness. They are both rated at the same mot, just more initial bite from the 70s. Indeed track only.

These pads need to be bedded-in properly or you will not get 100% out of them, and yes, they need to come up to temp., which is why I drag my brakes on the first straight. I hate people bitching about their pads who don't take the time to do proper heat cycling to bed them in (not saying you are).

RBF-660, flushed the night before every track event to keep wetness to a minimum.

Also, braking technique. There are some good threads on this.

And the above is my personal experience.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:28 PM   #17
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a6 are way faster than r6 and the same price. I also see about the same life because A6 run pretty good to the cords and R6 can heat cycle out pretty bad. so why go with a slower tire?
Something tells me a DE'er running R6's is going to be running them to the cords and not be concered if they fall off some over time.

Again, DE'ing, not competitive racing...

You're seriously suggesting this guy run A6s for driving events?
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:39 PM   #18
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You're seriously suggesting this guy run A6s for driving events?
I really could care less if he runs Nakyolo radials. Just mentioning that R6s are kinda worthless imo unless you are class mandated. He also does auto-x, and who knows if he's competitive, so yeah, why not?
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:45 PM   #19
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I really could care less if he runs Nakyolo radials. Just mentioning that R6s are kinda worthless imo unless you are class mandated. He also does auto-x, and who knows if he's competitive, so yeah, why not?
Agreed.

If guys can go out in 3300lb BMWs on A6s and run 48+ miles @ RA in wheel to wheel competition I don't think something like a driver's experience is going to overheat them. It's been said that he's not "competitive road racing" so he shouldn't be braking hard enough to overheat the tires anyway. If he's set on buying Hoosier the A6s would be safer if he doesn't drive hard enough to get the R6s up to temp. Plus he would have a competitive autocross tire. The only reason our team doesn't run A6s all the time while road racing is because of budget issues (they can start shredding rubber/life at the end of a race but he's not road racing)

Just my opinion
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:49 PM   #20
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I really could care less if he runs Nakyolo radials. Just mentioning that R6s are kinda worthless imo unless you are class mandated. He also does auto-x, and who knows if he's competitive, so yeah, why not?
Because he's DEing, so the to-the-cords life of the A6 is significantly less. As if the R6s didn't wear quickly anyway.
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:52 PM   #21
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Agreed.

If guys can go out in 3300lb BMWs on A6s and run 48+ miles @ RA in wheel to wheel competition I don't think something like a driver's experience is going to overheat them. It's been said that he's not "competitive road racing" so he shouldn't be braking hard enough to overheat the tires anyway. If he's set on buying Hoosier the A6s would be safer if he doesn't drive hard enough to get the R6s up to temp. Plus he would have a competitive autocross tire.
?

Advanced DE drivers/instructors may be using just as much brake/tire as you would in a competitive race. And they may be out for 5-6 or so 20-25 minute sessions per day. That's a few hours of track time a weekend. That will kill a set of A6s right quick. 48 miles? That could be half a track day.

Again, leave road racing out of it. We know R6s don't make sense. That is not what we're talking about. Recommending A6s to a DEer is silly.

Last edited by SoapBox; 04-11-2013 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 07:20 AM   #22
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I already have a set of R6's that were heat cycled once, I got them SUPER cheap, and a cheap set of wheels. If I get the R6's to last 2-3 track days I'll be happy. I will indeed be running them to the cords, same with my year old star specs, I want to make this rubber last one more season so I'm not planning on putting a ton of miles on the car except for travel to events.

AutoX is just for fun and more seat time, I'm not competitive. Hell, I barely even run SCCA events because they are too damn expensive!

Look at my mod list; this a weekend warrior DD, not a prepped road race car, haha
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Old 04-12-2013, 07:57 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeltedOutback View Post
from what I've seen on SF.org (and makes sense to me) is that removing the subframe spacers will 'drop' the subframe, but since the struts remain fixed; the front clip will be raised the amount of the spacers. I've only seen guys remove the spacers after substantial drops, and paired with saggy butt spacer, recover some more fender-to-wheel clearance.
I realize that most of the front end weight is the powertrain; but I don't want to get the 'ol polar bear higher in the sky than she already is....
jamal; if you have more info on this I would love to see it, since I'll be in there to do control arms, possible steering rack bushings anyways... free mods (like free caster and plates) are my favorite!
Removing the FXT cross member spacers will net you a lower COG not raise it! The body drops down with removal and does net a lower ride height. You will gain a full degree of + caster with the delete also. You should plan to swap out the front cross member and put an STI steering rack in if you do the spacer delete. You'll also need the WRX trans cross member or STI one but use the 5 speed trans mount. You basically are taking the SUV spacers out and changing the geometry to a WRX or STI type suspension geometry. You're going to need the RCA kit also with this change because of the drop.

Do the free caster mod also and change the rear transverse mounts on the LCA to the whiteline off set caster bushings. I'll tell you that this will totally transform the Foz and its handling and IT IS WORTH IT!!

My XTI has +6* caster now and will soon have close to 7* with some tweaks I'm doing.

Here's a link to the 6 speed cross member/ spacer delete info but it will apply to what you would be doing just with the 5 speed.

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulle...ad.php?t=73266

Last edited by manitou; 04-12-2013 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:04 AM   #24
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FYI, I'm swapping in some Feal rebuilt Ohlins FPS on my car later this month and will be selling the Feal re-valved 04 STI struts that I have on my car now. I'm running them with Swift R Spec springs and the XTI handles amazing with them. I'm keeping the Swifts to run with the Ohlins but I highly recommend them!

Let me know if you have any questions about these FXT suspension mods.

Here's a thread on my car it doesn't detail all the suspension work I've done but does show the ride height. I'm running tall 245/45-18 tires and I clear them now but have rolled my fenders and run 3/4" saggy butts on the rear top hats. I'm adding some custom made by me 1/2" top hat spacers to the front Com C top hats when I swap in the Ohlins.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2480570
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:09 AM   #25
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Quote:
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I already have a set of R6's that were heat cycled once, I got them SUPER cheap, and a cheap set of wheels. If I get the R6's to last 2-3 track days I'll be happy. I will indeed be running them to the cords, same with my year old star specs, I want to make this rubber last one more season so I'm not planning on putting a ton of miles on the car except for travel to events.

AutoX is just for fun and more seat time, I'm not competitive. Hell, I barely even run SCCA events because they are too damn expensive!

Look at my mod list; this a weekend warrior DD, not a prepped road race car, haha
From what I'm reading, you're looking at 1-2 hours (likely around 1) until cords on A6s. Needless to say, a horrible idea for you.

Cheap is cheap, and even cycled-out R6s are plenty fast.
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