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Old 05-04-2013, 03:33 PM   #1
Bikelok
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Default 4EAT, 16 Flashes of Death, or Torque Bind Sucks, or How To Replace a Duty C Solenoid

4EAT and the 16 Flashes of Death, or Torque Bind Sucks..

Ok, so my wife's 97 Legacy Outback was suffering from severe torque bind. Very noticeable at slow speeds while making sharp turns.



At start up, the AT Temp light would flash 16 times. I was able to diagnose that the duty solenoid had gone bad. I also decided to change the clutch pack when I replaced the solenoid.



Here is how I replaced a duty solenoid and clutch pack on a 4EAT without removing the entire transmission. I did this by myself, without any help at all, but a second set of hands would have been nice.



This should be very similar for all 4EAT.



This is a unfun job, but doable. Figure on approx. 4-6 hours of work.



If you don't have tools that would be needed for let's say, a clutch job, stop right now and let someone else do this.



I won't go into part numbers, as many 4EAT are very similar.

LOOK UP YOUR CORRECT PARTS! Make sure you get all the gaskets associated with the parts.

I got mine as a convenient kit from subarupartsforyou.com



You will need, a new duty solenoid with gaskets, clutch pack, transfer case gasket, exhaust manifold to cylinder head gaskets, ATF safe gasket sealer (usually red).



I bought 6 quarts of AT fluid, but only needed about 5.



Get your car up as high as it safely and securely can go.



Remove the exhaust. I did it as a system. I removed the exhaust manifolds from the heads (hence the need for these gaskets), undid all the hangers and slid it out of the way as a complete unit. Use lube on the rubber hangers and they slide right off.



Drain the AT fluid.



While its draining, remove the exhaust shielding at the drive shaft.

It should look like this when done.



https://i.imgur.com/mXpKqYu.jpg





Remove the driveshaft center carrier bolts



https://i.imgur.com/ciOUHnn.jpg





Remove the transmission crossmember. Support the transmission with a jack. Be careful not to dent or crush the pan. Use wood if needed for support.



https://i.imgur.com/t4oPMIz.jpg





Remove the driveshaft rear cover. 6 bolts.



https://i.imgur.com/XYsSLw0.jpg





Lower the transmission so you can slide the driveshaft out of the transmission. You do not have to undo the driveshaft from the rear end. Once out from the transmission, just swing the driveshaft to the side, out of the way.

Now it should look something like this.



https://i.imgur.com/qrdkoAe.jpg





Remove any sensors on the transfer case. The transfer case is the tail end of the transmission.



https://i.imgur.com/2mdpOOm.jpg
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Last edited by Bikelok; 03-29-2017 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 05-04-2013, 03:35 PM   #2
Bikelok
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Default 4EAT, 16 Flashes of Death, or Torque Bind Sucks, or How To Replace a Duty C Solenoid

Remove the transfer case bolts. Once removed you will have the joy of wrestling the transfer case off..
Good luck. Don't mess up the mating surfaces unless you like leaks. There are a couple of spots where you can CAREFULLY pry the case and break the gasket seal.

https://i.imgur.com/G150JIA.jpg


One thing to be careful of, is the solenoid is MOUNTED TO the transfer case, but the solenoid is WIRED TO the transmission.
DON'T LET THE CASE FALL OR PULL IT TO FAR OFF, YOU WILL BREAK THE WIRES. It has a simple plug that gets undone. When the case decides to come off, take it out, curse at it and now you can actually get out from under the car for a little while.

This is the cursed bad solenoid.

https://i.imgur.com/gVauyzQ.jpg


This is the new good one. It bolts right in. Replace the associated gaskets with it. Be careful of the tube that attaches to it. It is pressed in place (hand pressure) and held in place with a securing bolt.

https://i.imgur.com/khqKrFk.jpg


If you are not familiar with clutch packs (motorcycle days flashback), they are a series of metal rings. They alternate between a friction coated one and a plain steel one. Sorry no picture of the clutch pack itself.

Here is the snap ring/C-clip that holds the clutch pack in place. Remove it and slide all the pieces out. I applied new ATF fluid to the new friction discs. I installed them as I received them. They did not seem to have an up or down, but I was careful to instal them how I received them (I did not flip, or mix them up). I matched how the old ones came out.

https://i.imgur.com/m4rxBQ7.jpg


When they are just put in the "teeth" look like this. A jumbled mess.

https://i.imgur.com/S38c6um.jpg


Use a screwdriver, pick or whatever to get them like this. They slide around easy. Nice neat rows.

https://i.imgur.com/SWvWSM7.jpg


Clean off the gasket surfaces on the case and transmission. I applied a thin layer of gasket sealer to the transfer case side only. I then laid the gasket on that. So if I need to remove the case again, I will only have a mess on one side to clean up. The side that's NOT stuck under the car.

Ok, so it was getting late and I had to finish it up. The pictures had to take a back seat so bear with me. Sorry.

When it come time to mount the transfer case, the clutch pack hub (the gear the clutch pack fits in) comes out of the transfer case. Mine came out with just pulling on it with my hands.

If you don't remove the clutch hub and try to mount the transfer case while it is still in it, well good luck. I'm sure it can be done, but it would be torture at best. The removed clutch pack hub goes into the corresponding gear on the transmission. Make sure it seats in all the way.
I found this photo of the clutch hub mounted on the transmission prior to installing the case (sorry, best picture of this I could find).

https://i.imgur.com/rDpkeVX.jpg


Ok, before the case goes back on. Make sure the parking pawl is installed and the spring is set properly. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is a picture of mine. This picture is BEFORE I bent the bottom portion of the spring down further off the top of the "hump". Occasionally when the transfer case comes off, the pawl pin will sometimes come out of the transmission and stay with the transfer case. If it does the spring goes boing and the pawl flops down. Just move the pawl pin back on the transmission so you can reassemble.

https://i.imgur.com/NC8PT9G.jpg


MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT PINCH THE SOLENOID WIRES WHEN YOU PUT THE TRANSFER CASE ON!!!
I should say wrestle and fight the case back on.

Reassemble all the bits you previously took off to get to the transmission.

Fill up the transmission and you should be done.

Again, this job sucked, but if you can change a clutch, or the like, you should be able to do this.

I hope this helps, Good luck.

Last edited by Bikelok; 03-28-2017 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:42 PM   #3
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Yes, this was a pain in ass. I figured since I dont contribute to write ups usually that I would put in my .02 due to the complexities.
Background:
2004 Impreza WRX with 4EAT
160k
intermittent AT OIL TEMP light came on only when it was cold and stayed. After a hundred miles or so it was on all the time which means the transmission goes into limp mode with two wheel drive and torque bind.
I paid the dealer to diagnose it. Bad duty solenoid in the transfer case. I ordered the parts through them since its my DD and I needed them overnighted.

Job:
There were a few differences from this write up and the 2004 AT.
I took the exhaust off at the fitting before the last cat (next to the transfer case).
The drive shaft has to come out of the case. I cant see how it would without doing this. Four bolts at the aft of the car and its done. Use the parking break to move the shaft for two at a time.
Take your time removing the case and take a break as needed. It is frustrating as all get out. Take a plastic scraper once you get a tad of separation. Use a rubber hammer to tap it up the edge of the case to get some separation. There are two studs, one at the top and one at the bottom. The bottom will separate better than the top so once the bottom gets out about 1/4 inch tap it back together and work up the sides. When it pops, it will move. Be slow and gentle as the clutch on the WRX is different than this write up. THERE IS NO WIRE INSIDE THAT WILL HAVE TO BE DISCONNECTED BEFORE SEPARATION OF THE CASE. The only wire is the temp sensor on the top left of the case. The duty solenoid is in the bottom left still attached to the AT. When you order the parts from the dealer they do not give you the seal that is in the duty solenoid. Try to order this. Put in your new duty and clutch pack. The pack goes onto the transmission in the gear looking housing. Mine came out in the transfer case. Remove the shaft from the transfer case. Mine was not out without using a rubber hammer. Insert the shaft with gear into the clutch pack which is aligned like to OP instructed. It has to be all the way in through all of the teeth or you wont get it back together. All told I had to take the case back off three times to realign the shaft. It is a huge pain in the ass. More like Jenga. Get it to the point where you can thread one of the bottom bolts. Then look at the shaft. If it is not centered turn one of the wheels with your foot and hold the end of the shaft. This will center the gears. Pray.. Pray some more and press the case together. I did not have to worry about the parking pawl spring. This case has it in a good spot.
Closure: If anyone has the torque spec for the case please post it. I did 17.5 ft/lbs. I did not use any gasket aids as the new gasket is metal and seems to have a great seal. I have no leaks. Be careful of the two way seal area at the bottom of the transfer case. This is a very aggravating design because it is hard to determine if there is a leak which seal it is.

I hope this helps with the good OP write up. Thanks.

8 hrs total three nights after work and half a tool box on the floor

Last edited by VIR-CDOC-GUY; 12-08-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:43 PM   #4
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VIR-guy, in 2000 (I think) they moved the solenoid to the case instead of the ext housing, makes the job a lot easier.

I am curious what your solenoid looked like, as on the outback in '04 they changed it.

Did you notice on the little rubber spacers, were they the same length on both sides of the plate that holds the solenoid, or was one side (towards the case or away from the case) thinner?

just curious...

When I did mine I had the luxury of a trans on the bench, I measured how far on the shaft went when properly aligned so I could confirm before trying to put on the case.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:23 AM   #5
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VIR-CDOC-GUY, nice addition. Thanks.
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:17 PM   #6
VIR-CDOC-GUY
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Dave,
Solenoid came sealed in the aluminum with no rubber spacers between it and the case. The fluid ports run through the mating surfaces which is metal on metal. There are four bolts that hold it in. The only rubber involved is a gasket facing the rear of the car that mates to the case port to lubricate the far/aft end of the drive shaft. My kit did not include this. Looks like there are a few variations from year to year and model.
All told this solenoid is very tricky when you analyze the engineering to it. I am surprised and disappointing it is not easier to get to.
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Old 12-14-2013, 03:13 PM   #7
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Awesome guide! Thanks for taking the time to do this.
Did you take any picts of the other side of the clutch, the side the steel disk "tabs" slide into. I have heard they get groves in them.
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Old 12-14-2013, 05:56 PM   #8
Bikelok
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Sorry, I did not take any pics of the back side.

Mine was slightly grooved. It did not seem bad enough to hang things up, so I left it as is. I was prepared to smooth it down with a sander and a Dremel.
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIR-CDOC-GUY View Post
Dave,
Solenoid came sealed in the aluminum with no rubber spacers between it and the case. The fluid ports run through the mating surfaces which is metal on metal. There are four bolts that hold it in. The only rubber involved is a gasket facing the rear of the car that mates to the case port to lubricate the far/aft end of the drive shaft. My kit did not include this. Looks like there are a few variations from year to year and model.
All told this solenoid is very tricky when you analyze the engineering to it. I am surprised and disappointing it is not easier to get to.

That describes the valve itself, the solenoid is stuck into the valve- the part that has the wires going to it- unless they really changed things around...
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:48 AM   #10
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Bumping my thread to add a link to another post.
The link is about a newer phase 2 version 2 4EAT with a solenoid on the valve body.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2594381
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Old 10-04-2014, 01:09 PM   #11
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Strange. Mines having torque bind issues but it seems a little less clear cut than most others experiences and I still can't figure it out.

My rear wheels are locking up. Putting in the fwd fuse eliminates the problem. Which according to everyone else means the duty c solenoid is not the issue. The fluid was brand new, I changed it twice more just for good measure. Went and did figure 8s. No change.

Rear diff fluid is brand new as well so I decided to order a new duty c solenoid anyways. Waited over a week and ended up being a wrong part so I had a spare tranny known to be good and replaced both the duty c AND the rear extension housing incase it was the clutch packs. Reinstalled, fixed absolutely nothing. No at light illuminating either.

Mind = blown. Not sure if maybe the rear diff is gone somehow? What else could it be! Rawr.
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Old 10-04-2014, 01:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solhaven View Post
Strange. Mines having torque bind issues but it seems a little less clear cut than most others experiences and I still can't figure it out.

My rear wheels are locking up. Putting in the fwd fuse eliminates the problem. Which according to everyone else means the duty c solenoid is not the issue. The fluid was brand new, I changed it twice more just for good measure. Went and did figure 8s. No change.

Rear diff fluid is brand new as well so I decided to order a new duty c solenoid anyways. Waited over a week and ended up being a wrong part so I had a spare tranny known to be good and replaced both the duty c AND the rear extension housing incase it was the clutch packs. Reinstalled, fixed absolutely nothing. No at light illuminating either.

Mind = blown. Not sure if maybe the rear diff is gone somehow? What else could it be! Rawr.
Please complete your profile. We don't know what kind model or year you are referring about.


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Old 10-04-2014, 04:53 PM   #13
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It's actually an 01 forester 4eat! My apologies.
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Old 10-04-2014, 06:00 PM   #14
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Solhaven, are all the wheels/tires the same size?

Are there any other symptoms? How is the car behaving exactly?

How's the gas mileage?

Are you certain that used tail assembly was functioning properly?



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Old 10-04-2014, 11:51 PM   #15
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The tires are all the same pressures and treads are even. Worn pretty low but even.

Honestly I bought the vehicle with a blown head gasket(s) and was hoping to winter drive it. So I didn't even drive it before I bought it. (Obviously my mistake haha)

So I haven't driven it far since I noticed issues immediately on my first test drive. No idea on fuel economy with that being said.

Symptoms are identical prior to doing any of the above so I find it hard to believe BOTH tails and BOTH solenoids would've acted the exact same way. Maybe I'm just being a pessimist.

Hmm..
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Old 10-05-2014, 04:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solhaven View Post
The tires are all the same pressures and treads are even. Worn pretty low but even.

Honestly I bought the vehicle with a blown head gasket(s) and was hoping to winter drive it. So I didn't even drive it before I bought it. (Obviously my mistake haha)

So I haven't driven it far since I noticed issues immediately on my first test drive. No idea on fuel economy with that being said.

Symptoms are identical prior to doing any of the above so I find it hard to believe BOTH tails and BOTH solenoids would've acted the exact same way. Maybe I'm just being a pessimist.

Hmm..
Both tail components being bad would be kind of freaky, but not out of the question.

Very odd indeed. When you resolve this please post the outcome as it can help someone else later. Also if you can think of other pertinent info let us know.

Good luck.


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Old 10-05-2014, 05:14 PM   #17
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Perhaps the differential was driven on for a long period of time which caused her to tank.

That's about all I can think of besides maybe an electrical issue. When and if I find out I'll definitely let you guys know!
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Old 01-20-2015, 05:56 PM   #18
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Subscribe.


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Old 06-26-2015, 10:34 PM   #19
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OK, so I did the duty c solenoid replacement and I still got the 16 flashes and no FWD when I plug in the fuse. Any ideas how to go about trouble shooting? And yes, I'm pretty sure I plugged it in and attached the ground before I closed it up.
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:40 PM   #20
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What is the best way to test a clutch (duty c0 solenoid) when its still installed?
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Old 06-27-2015, 12:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbo View Post
What is the best way to test a clutch (duty c0 solenoid) when its still installed?

With everything assembled?

How was it diagnosed?

Please fill out your profile so we know general area, car, model, year, etc.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:02 AM   #22
VIR-CDOC-GUY
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The diagnosis may be the key if you did everything correct on procedure. I had dealer dx the problem so I knew exactly what the problem was and it was worth the hundred bones.
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Old 06-07-2016, 05:44 PM   #23
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Default my experience so far

i've been following the instructions on this thread for my 1990 legacy awd auto that i bought for $100 + $150 to tow it to my work. it runs but need some exhaust, rear shocks, drivers side front wheel bearings. after i did the bearings i noticed the BIND. so far i have removed everything up to drive shaft. waiting on gaskets. i pulled a duty c solenoid, valve body and clutch pack, from a donor trans. i wanted to show you guys my car and the gouging on the donor trans. oh, you can see my other parts car in background, but it is not the donor of the auto trans. oh yeah, i wanted to say that i could not get drive shaft out, without disconnecting mine from rear pumpkin.
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Old 06-07-2016, 07:17 PM   #24
Bikelok
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Ouch, the gouging is a bit rough.
If it's that bad on your car, I'd suggest trying to smooth them out a bit. Don't go crazy, just take some of the rough edges off.
Make sure you keep it clean of shavings.
Mine was not bad at all, just some faint marks, so I left it as is.
Good luck.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:46 PM   #25
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bikelok, hope you are online. i have reassembled my trans, drive shaft (partially) and exhaust. by partially i mean that i am unable to put the remaining 3 bolts/nuts on that hold shaft to rear pumpkin because shaft won't rotate. it will rotate a small amount only when shifter is on N neutral, and almost not at all then shifter is on P park. what did i do wrong?

if i was able to get those bolts in, i'd be ready to add trans fluid and test for binding. this trans had about as much gouging as the other did but i did not address it as i was supposed to get the car out of its current location tomorrow and thought i would get back to it at another time.

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