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Old 04-10-2016, 01:10 PM   #1
rufus819
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275/310 PhatBotti tuned

Default My tuning experience: Why TGV and EGR deletes are a must

On 4/9/16, I took my WRX to be tuned by Mikey Botti at EFI Logics, and the numbers I came away with I was extremely impressed and satisfied. The same day a guy went before me in his 2016 WRX with intake, catless JPipe and SPT exhaust; and my buddy and his Stg 2 2014 WRX with intake so I have a good comparison between 2 other common setups and what I did.


My Car: 2015 WRX
Fuel: 93 Octane
Oil: Motul 8100 X-clean 5w30 full synth and Subaru filter. (for track and dyno I use Motul, otherwise Pennzoil Platinum Plus 5w30 synth)
Modifications: TGV/EGR Deletes, Accessport, EBCS, Cobb SS CBE, Stock intake with K&N filter, STOCK J-PIPE.
Ambient temperature: 42 degrees, rain
Elevation: 482 ft above sea level

Power: 275whp/309tq



The first question you might be asking "Why didn't you upgrade the J-pipe and just go stage 2?!"

I did my research diligently on this car through various forums, speaking with tuners and vendors. Prior to my WRX I owned a Stg 2 2008 Spec B tuned by Chris Kiewert at EFI Logics in 2011 that threw down 265whp/295tq. On the EJ255 Motor, the downpipe is a must for one of your first power modifications, the shape of the downpipe on the EJ's alone is very restrictive with 2 extreme bends in to the remainder of the exhaust. The J-pipe on our car, not so much as it is just one 90 degree bend and a straight shot out of your car. When I bought this car, I wanted to keep it primarily stock since I drive it quite a bit (owned it 10 months, 24k miles and climbing). I enjoyed it stock for quite some time, for 7 months and 18k miles I kept it stock, but I always felt it left a little more to be desired to be perfect. The stock setup was pretty good but with a little love this car could be awesome to drive but still practical. So this is when I started looking in to modifications.

The first thing I looked at was the TGV/EGR Deletes, one of the most common things people are complaining about is the carbon build up in these motors and one of the best solutions for it was to do the EGR delete, I figured while I am doing this I might as well do the TGV deletes, it's a simple install for both and with a tune it looks like you gain a decent amount of power. Based on others dyno results on here, the intake tract of this car seems to be the most restrictive between the TGV and OEM Chargepipe. The OEM intercooler is ok but if you're looking for a huge difference in cooling especially during hotter climates it just won't cut it. Baseline dyno for my car was 220whp/250tq so we'll also use this as as reference.

In comparison, the 2016 WRX that went before me was running an invidia Catless J-pipe, Mishimoto intake, SPT/STI exhaust, and the stock intercooler/chargepipe. His dyno results were 260whp/306tq. The owner seemed to be disappointed in those numbers, however Mikey explained to him that the J-pipe alone is not that big of a gain (as seen in the numbers) and if he really wants to see a big gain in numbers for stage 2, TGV/EGR deletes and an upgraded intercooler + chargepipe are the way to go.

Am I saying the J-pipe is a worthless modification? Absolutely not but i would consider it lower on the totem pole of things to modify in terms of the order in which you purchase things for your build. TGV/EGR deletes slightly increase more air flow in to your car but not enough to restrict your OEM J-pipe, IC and Charge pipe. Once you upgrade your intercooler and chargepipe + deletes you are significantly increasing your turbo inlet airflow, and that's where you will need the aftermarket J-pipe to see max power out of the car.

Another comparison to make here, my buddy's 2014 WRX with Invidia catted downpipe, cobb intake, invidia N1 exhaust, fuel pump and EBCS made 278whp/312tq, similiar numbers to what I made with my Stage 1 + plus deletes. This goes to show the difference between the FA20 and EJ255 motors and how we can have a much greater power potential out of them with about the same amount of money put in to them.

Here's my best dyno pull of the day:





and my buddy's 2014:


My overall impression: This is exactly how I would want this car out of the box. Every gripe I had about the car stock has been fixed with my modifications. Throttle response has improved greatly and when accellerating I can take every gear to 6500 RPM without losing any power. For the $120 TGV and EGR deletes cost and a gain of 55whp/59tq (25% gain over baseline), that's a no brainer modification for anybody to do.

Am I going to go Stg 2? Not any time soon, I'm really happy with how this tune panned out. If I do, I'm going to go full on Stage 2 with Intercooler and fuel pump. Since Mikey and I agreed the J-pipe isn't a huge gain, I am going to find a decent one for cheap used as I'm sure there will be people doing part outs in the near future, for a 10hp gain give or take I dont see spending $700 on one worth it. The biggest thing I'm going to do my research on for this will be the intercooler, I like both the Verticooler kit and the KillerB aftercooler + Chargepipe. I would also like to see more on the development from Grimmspeed on their intercooler and charge pipe before I make my decision, so going stage 2 won't be for atleast another 6 months.

Bottom line here for anyone whether you are stage 1 or 2, spend the $120 on TGV/EGR deletes. For the 2 hours of your time to do the install and power output you get out of them with your tune, it is well worth the money!
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Last edited by rufus819; 04-12-2016 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:27 PM   #2
Floody420
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Good call man. Pretty interesting results. I'm thinking about doing the TGV/EGR deletes just to help out with less carbon build up.
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:38 PM   #3
rufus819
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suprisingly with the miles I've put on my car the carbon build up on my valves was not bad, and not enough to warrant spending $400 on walnut blasting the heads. One of the shops I go to (Broken Motorsports in Union City, NJ) the owner Billy has been a long time BMW enthusiast as well as Subaru and has a lot of experience with direct injection. According to him the carbon build up becomes an issue for those that do not drive their cars often, where as I'm putting anywhere from 3-4,000 miles a month on my car it's seeing good usage, along with a very good upkeep on my oil changes and maintenance that my engine did not need walnut blasting. I'm sure others here may disagree but this is one of the few guys I trust with my car and he's a professional. Getting an AOS will definitely be one of the next things I do to this car before I start bringing on more power.
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:44 PM   #4
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Solid write up. Your numbers seem to match up to the experience of others but there are also numbers showing larger gains with intake and full turbo back however for the difference in the cost between your path and stage 2 it offers solid performance to price.

What was the feedback the tuner gave on the K&N filter? Looks like my EGR/TGV deletes may get installed soon , just passed 18K and have been on a MAP Stage 1 tune which is have really liked but now want more. An intercooler would also be the last piece to the puzzle with all other parts already collected.
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:46 PM   #5
Floody420
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Damn you DI. I am so torn with everything. I want a basic tune to correct the stock crappy fuel map, but god forbid the carbon buildup becomes a huge issue in the future when our FA's have lots of miles. SOA will have a field day of denying claims. I work at a GM dealer and I have seen how bad DI valves get. Just crazy man. AOS def seems like a good idea no matter what.
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Old 04-10-2016, 02:10 PM   #6
rufus819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cisco Kidd View Post
Solid write up. Your numbers seem to match up to the experience of others but there are also numbers showing larger gains with intake and full turbo back however for the difference in the cost between your path and stage 2 it offers solid performance to price.

What was the feedback the tuner gave on the K&N filter? Looks like my EGR/TGV deletes may get installed soon , just passed 18K and have been on a MAP Stage 1 tune which is have really liked but now want more. An intercooler would also be the last piece to the puzzle with all other parts already collected.


I didn't even tell him I had one or a stock J-pipe until we were done, he smuggly laughed and said that's awesome. He pulled 285 once but said those numbers didn't feel good and he wanted me to have drivability not max power. So an aftermarket J pipe will amount to a 10hp gain.

I'm not doing an intake, factory intake is rated to 400hp and plastic has lower heat transfer, intercooler definitely though.

Right now i'm leaning toward the Verticooler kit because it's a great value for the money, but I also want to see what grimmspeed puts out for an intercooler and chargepipe before i decide.
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:01 PM   #7
rufus819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cisco Kidd View Post
Solid write up. Your numbers seem to match up to the experience of others but there are also numbers showing larger gains with intake and full turbo back however for the difference in the cost between your path and stage 2 it offers solid performance to price.

Nailed it right there.

AP + TGV/EGR Deletes and EBCS= $800 + $500 protune = 55 HP gain that's $21 per HP.

AP + Full Turboback exhaust and EBCS= $2300 (average based on all the exhaust prices out there)+ $500 protune = $70 per HP (based on 260hp tune). Again I think the intake does very little for stage 1 and 2 so if you add the intake to that, you're looking at $75-80 per HP.

This is exactly what I was going for and i'm happy with it. I'm not a HP chaser I'm all about drivability. So if I'm going to go stg 2, it will have all the other components in it as well.
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:10 PM   #8
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This has totally validated my suspicions. I'm running a stock j-pipe with a PRL charge pipe, KB Aftercooler, EBCS, EGR delete and a Nameless CBE, and I'm putting down around 267hp/295tq. I'm going to add the TGVs fairly soon and re-tune, but I've seen no real reason to mess with a full TBE since drivability and reliability are my main concerns. Was any thought given to doing the lower TGVs as well?...SC
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:12 PM   #9
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For tgv and egr delete, can you use an accessory to just delete those codes or do you need a tuner to delete those codes?
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by rufus819 View Post
Nailed it right there.

AP + TGV/EGR Deletes and EBCS= $800 + $500 protune = 55 HP gain that's $21 per HP.

AP + Full Turboback exhaust and EBCS= $2300 (average based on all the exhaust prices out there)+ $500 protune = $70 per HP (based on 260hp tune). Again I think the intake does very little for stage 1 and 2 so if you add the intake to that, you're looking at $75-80 per HP.

This is exactly what I was going for and i'm happy with it. I'm not a HP chaser I'm all about drivability. So if I'm going to go stg 2, it will have all the other components in it as well.
Good point. I actually sold off my N1 dual cbe. I have a MAP intake and catted dp, gs ebcs , charge pipe kit,TGV/EGR delete plus an AOS. However with that all installed I see its worthwhile to get a new tmic, waiting to see GS and MAPs outcome, may as well install it all and tune once, its a waiting game which I hate.

Have you seen MAP's dyno graph on a tbe and intake, all else stock, 325hp on 93. I will not chase a full tbe jpipe will be good enough since I have, plus noise reduction overall.
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:37 PM   #11
rufus819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clark4131 View Post
This has totally validated my suspicions. I'm running a stock j-pipe with a PRL charge pipe, KB Aftercooler, EBCS, EGR delete and a Nameless CBE, and I'm putting down around 267hp/295tq. I'm going to add the TGVs fairly soon and re-tune, but I've seen no real reason to mess with a full TBE since drivability and reliability are my main concerns. Was any thought given to doing the lower TGVs as well?...SC


Since you have an aftermarket IC and Chargepipe, I would do the J pipe as well. Think of it this way, your J Pipe is pulling air, your intercooler and charge pipe are pushing a lot more air in to the car. Add TGV's in you are pushing A LOT more air in than your stock J-Pipe can pull. You're really limiting your other mods with a stock J pipe that way as it can only pull so much from the great amount you are pushing. You will see a much higher torque to power ratio that way.
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by rufus819 View Post
Since you have an aftermarket IC and Chargepipe, I would do the J pipe as well. Think of it this way, your J Pipe is pulling air, your intercooler and charge pipe are pushing a lot more air in to the car. Add TGV's in you are pushing A LOT more air in than your stock J-Pipe can pull. You're really limiting your other mods with a stock J pipe that way as it can only pull so much from the great amount you are pushing. You will see a much higher torque to power ratio that way.
I think the increased torque is the issue behind a lot of the engine failures we've been seeing with these engines. Coupled with the LSPI and other knock issues these cars seem prone to, I'm fine with my current torque levels. It seems that a common denominator in most of the failure examples that have been posted has been the jump to Stage 2. I'm just about to roll over 5,000 miles, so I'm perfectly happy where I'm at. I'm already making the Kessel Run in just over 13 parsecs, so the TGV delete and retune will just be a little icing on the cake...SC
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:59 PM   #13
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The biggest issue of failure on these engines is the driver mod, not the actual mods it self. If you're doing redline pulls daily coupled with your modifications and you aren't staying on top of your maintenance, you're going to experience failure. With increased HP means you need to increase your OCI. If you're running what can potentially be 330hp/370 torque you can't be changing your oil every 4-6k miles like subaru says you can stock. It's more like every 2-3k
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:26 PM   #14
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Default My tuning experience: Why TGV and EGR deletes are a must

Very true! Unfortunately, the driver mod has zero quality control...SC

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Old 04-10-2016, 10:12 PM   #15
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Good info thanks
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Old 04-10-2016, 11:15 PM   #16
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I'm currently runnin a full tbe, intake, tgv/egr deletes with an ebcs and I've really been tryin to wait for flex fuel from cobb to take advantage of all the e85 in the area... but a new tmic w/ a chargepipe/ retune is very tempting..
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:05 AM   #17
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I'm currently runnin a full tbe, intake, tgv/egr deletes with an ebcs and I've really been tryin to wait for flex fuel from cobb to take advantage of all the e85 in the area... but a new tmic w/ a chargepipe/ retune is very tempting..
Intercooler and chargepipe would definitely be in your best interests of things to do with what you have right now and you could get your car in to the 300HP range on pump gas if that's what you're looking for.

I really like the Process West Verticooler, a lot of people are raving about it and for the price of $980 that it comes with everything you need: Chargepipe, couplings and any other mounting hardware you would need. I also like the KillerB aftercooler but that + their charge pipe we're looking at a $300 difference. The other one I'm waiting on to develop further is the Grimmspeed TMIC coupled with their charge pipe, Grimmspeed always makes top quality parts and I'm sure their intercooler will be no different since they are taking their time to make a quality product. My tuner said i couldn't go wrong with any of those 3 companies so it's a matter of doing my due diligence on the research.

PS. Paging Grimmspeed, whats the update on your Intercooler?

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Old 04-11-2016, 03:07 AM   #18
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For tgv and egr delete, can you use an accessory to just delete those codes or do you need a tuner to delete those codes?
There is more to it than just disabling codes.
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:13 AM   #19
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I've been eyeing the verticooler. I've read a few people love it and think it adds value and a few that say the "verticooler" is just a gimic. It makes sense to me that it would be beneficial and i love that it come with a chargepipe. Much more bang for the buck than buying in pieces
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:59 AM   #20
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Great to see these solid numbers. Did you discuss intercooler options with EFI, and ask for their suggestions/opinions?
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:39 AM   #21
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Great to see these solid numbers. Did you discuss intercooler options with EFI, and ask for their suggestions/opinions?


I did, i spoke with Mikey Botti and we went over options for more power in the future. I said I liked the Verticooler, KillerB and waiting for Grimmspeed and he said any 3 of those would be a good choice, but if I really wanted 300+ a front mount would be best. I would agree but a lot of the FMIC's I've found for this car haven't been good so far.
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Old 04-11-2016, 11:23 AM   #22
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Dude this is awesome. I think I'm going to make the same move as you. Thanks for the post.
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Old 04-11-2016, 11:40 AM   #23
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Assuming you already have an accessport, TGV deletes new will run you anywhere from $90-120, i wouldn't care so much about what brand it is because they all do the same thing and you won't even be able to see them. EGR deletes new will run you about $50. Search the Subaru FB groups local to you and you might be able to find them cheaper used and locally. I did that and paid $120 for both deletes. EBCS will run you another $140 new. With protune all that came out to $760 for me and I gained 55 hp. Not a bad deal


Since you're in NY, make sure you get tuned by Mikey @ EFI, it's a must honestly

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Old 04-11-2016, 11:59 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus819 View Post
Assuming you already have an accessport, TGV deletes new will run you anywhere from $90-120, i wouldn't care so much about what brand it is because they all do the same thing and you won't even be able to see them. EGR deletes new will run you about $50. Search the Subaru FB groups local to you and you might be able to find them cheaper used and locally. I did that and paid $120 for both deletes. EBCS will run you another $140 new. With protune all that came out to $760 for me and I gained 55 hp. Not a bad deal


Since you're in NY, make sure you get tuned by Mikey @ EFI, it's a must honestly
What was the final cost out the door for the tuning at EFI?(assuming you installed all the parts yourself)
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:00 PM   #25
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What was the final cost out the door for the tuning at EFI?(assuming you installed all the parts yourself)
They charge $500 for your initial tune, $350 for a re-tune if it's within a year.
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