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Old 09-11-2017, 11:54 AM   #1
samagon
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Default China to join England and France by banning gasoline/Diesel

https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/10/...sil-fuel-cars/

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It's not just European countries planning long-term bans on fossil fuel cars. China's vice minister of industry and IT, Xin Guobin, has revealed that the country's government is developing a timetable for a ban on sales of fossil fuel vehicles. The official hasn't given a rough estimate for when a ban would kick in, but France and the UK are both aiming for 2040. It won't be surprising if China aims for a similar time frame, and it's already introducing a cap-and-trade program that forces companies to buy credits from rivals if their fuel economy and emissions don't fall within certain limits.

The move is as much about the economy as the environment. China is clearly grappling with severe air pollution, and taking gas-powered cars off the road could help when combined with a reduced dependence on coal power. However, a ban on those sales would also help the Chinese car market, which is quickly building a reputation for EVs through brands like Geely (which owns Volvo) and BYD. It would encourage foreign companies to collaborate with the Chinese, too, such as Honda's just-announced plans to release a China-specific EV in 2018. And crucially, banning sales of fossil fuel cars will cut oil imports, reducing China's dependence on other countries.

Whatever the motivations, the eventual ban is likely to have a tremendous effect on the automotive industry. Although China's ratio of car ownership is relatively low (about 1 in 5 people), the sheer number of people in the country makes it the largest car market on Earth, with about 290 million vehicles on the road as of 2016. Automakers may have little choice but to switch to EVs if they want to operate in China and compete with the world's biggest brands. In other words, it likely won't matter what politicians elsewhere believe about the environment -- China's shift could dictate a switch to EVs around the world.
TLDR:

China says "I see England, I see France, we are banning gasoline"
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:59 AM   #2
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but the us says... gas is cheap, why do we need electric vehicles?

in 10-20 years, these stuck-in-the-mud gas humping morons will give China the keys to the world. They're already selling their businesses to them so they can retire on a yacht in the Mediterranean.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:02 PM   #3
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the plus side is that in 10-20 years gasoline is going to be exceedingly cheap because no one else wants it.
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Old 09-11-2017, 12:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samagon View Post
the plus side is that in 10-20 years gasoline is going to be exceedingly cheap because no one else wants it.
I'm in. I'll start saving now for some outrageous muscle car that gets 3 mpg and start working on my pitch to the wife lol
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:13 PM   #5
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It's all about an anti auto agenda. It will start with diesels and on from there. They really prefer everyone walk to work. Read " Agenda 21 " or critique democrats against agenda 21 or at United Nations site. Next is the "rare clean water" water agenda
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:21 PM   #6
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I went to Beijing last summer with my fiance to visit her family, and pretty much all of the scooters and funny little delivery Go-Karts were electric. Future father in law, said two years ago they took over because they are cheeper and going electric is popular because it's what Westerners are doing (but mostly cheaper) . The parking garage of his condo was full of gas scooters that were covered in dust because nobody wants gas in the city now. The county side is another story though.
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Old 09-11-2017, 03:44 PM   #7
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It's all about an anti auto agenda. It will start with diesels and on from there. They really prefer everyone walk to work. Read " Agenda 21 " or critique democrats against agenda 21 or at United Nations site. Next is the "rare clean water" water agenda
I'm really curious to know what your regular news source is. Because your mindset is baffling to me, and someone is programming it... Being honest here. I recognize that I live in liberal world and I like to follow "the other side" too...
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Old 09-11-2017, 04:27 PM   #8
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I'm really curious to know what your regular news source is. Because your mindset is baffling to me, and someone is programming it... Being honest here. I recognize that I live in liberal world and I like to follow "the other side" too...
I recommend starting here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propag...39;s_Attitudes

you can either buy it or download the pdf. it's a good basis to start with when talking about or thinking about the competing information out there.

Understanding that we each live in a propaganda bubble of our own preferences is just scratching the surface of it.

Science really is the method designed for setting all propaganda aside and forcing the facts to create the narrative. Yet, even that narrative will become propaganda. Good luck finding the truth.
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Old 09-11-2017, 04:41 PM   #9
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Lol, that means all of the car manufacturers that saw China as the next big market will have to (or should have been) making the move to EV's, Subaru included.

I really want to see what Land Rover thinks up. AWD/4WD usually takes a hit when it comes to functionality when you pair it with an EV. I'd like to see how their biggest market for long wheelbase models motivates them to start electrifying their Land Rovers. It'd definitely be interesting to see how well their reliability stacks up too once they go EV.
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Old 09-11-2017, 05:27 PM   #10
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I recommend starting here
Not really what I want to know. If you read between the lines in my post, I recognize that everyone's minds are programmed. From news sources to religion, humans seek out something that helps make sense of the world... You're basically just pointing out what's at the center of my question. What I want to know is what sources shape his mind (and others with similar attitudes).

Last edited by dwf137; 09-11-2017 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 09-11-2017, 05:33 PM   #11
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Not really what I want to know. If you read between the lines in my post, I recognize that everyone's minds are programmed. What I want to know is what new sources shape his mind (and others with similar attitudes).
I just assume the guy is an oil/gas lobbyist. That's the problem. We get these vastly differing viewpoints where micro/macro policy is mixed together. It's never a clear conversation. I feel like everyone else in the world is the parents having an important conversation and Americans are the screaming children in the background. Especially on days like today.
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Old 09-11-2017, 06:30 PM   #12
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I just assume the guy is an oil/gas lobbyist. That's the problem. We get these vastly differing viewpoints where micro/macro policy is mixed together. It's never a clear conversation. I feel like everyone else in the world is the parents having an important conversation and Americans are the screaming children in the background. Especially on days like today.
Same. The lack of empathy around here and our state just went through the same damn thing. The local news led last night with the Dallas Cowgirls game/result, then a mass shooting in the area, then the storm. People just do not care until it happens to them. Damn shame. Supposed to be UNITED States. I'm just happy the severity was much less than anticipated. Thank God for that. These *****s here caused a gas panic/outage because they couldn't conserve on a holiday weekend. A week later as was predicted, pumps all working again. The narcissism on display I will never forget after Harvey hit.

I was reading on the subject this weekend and it was stated Cows, the combination of the methane, but also the vast amounts of real estate, sq. footage/grass/water etc necessary, again the entire combo meal for beef/milk production was a greater contributor than cars. At this point it needs to be an all hands approach. One look at the islands Irma hit prior to US soil should tell folks a lot. But the deniers will persist. A world overpopulated, all the signs, science, temps, storms, nothing will change their minds. We trust science to save our a$$ in an ER room, trust it to fly ourselves somewhere, to save ourselves in a car crash, but not in regard to the Earf. The Earth Science I took in 8th grade is a bunch of bs. Otay
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Old 09-11-2017, 06:45 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
I just assume the guy is an oil/gas lobbyist. That's the problem. We get these vastly differing viewpoints where micro/macro policy is mixed together. It's never a clear conversation. I feel like everyone else in the world is the parents having an important conversation and Americans are the screaming children in the background. Especially on days like today.
It's not really a question of it being a clear conversation, you're just upset people don't agree with you. Case in point, what proof do you have he's an oil/gas lobbyist? Why must someone be paid to have a differing view point? I have found that in most cases the one who is doing the most hollering about something is the most guilty of it, so please buckle your seat belt and leave your sister alone.
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Old 09-11-2017, 07:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
I just assume the guy is an oil/gas lobbyist. That's the problem. We get these vastly differing viewpoints where micro/macro policy is mixed together. It's never a clear conversation. I feel like everyone else in the world is the parents having an important conversation and Americans are the screaming children in the background. Especially on days like today.
Says the guy from the Bay Area.. a bastion of free speech these days . Well as long as you only believe and say what we believe and say.


And the guy has a point. In LA they are actively reducing lanes in congested areas and trying to increase traffic to force people to use bikes or mass transit. it does not even make sense.. lets make everyone sit on the roads for longer, causing more pollution to further our dumb political agenda of more bikes on the road. In the LA area we have the fewest mass transit users in 30 years.

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Old 09-11-2017, 11:53 PM   #15
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Ah, perhaps my comment came out the wrong way. I wasn't saying being affiliated with oil/gas lobby was THE problem as if I disagree with his/her position. I was saying the conspiratorial propagandized extremes on both sides dictate the conversation and discourse and eventual policies, pushing out sensible critique and stalling solutions we can all agree would be reasonable progress. One sided approaches. Not framing the conversation appropriately thus shutting down discourse creating the us vs. them dynamic. Which I believe is the problem. And you're right, my mistake caused the exact thing I was trying to point out as being the problem. Humbling. ha ha.
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Old 09-12-2017, 01:27 AM   #16
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China having clean air and electric vehicle infrastructure.

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Old 09-12-2017, 05:45 AM   #17
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I was really hoping we'd have refined EV's to the point that they offered the same basic advantages that gasoline has had since we got a large network of gas stations before we went to switching over en mass. I have zero problems making the switch when I can buy an EV that offers me 250-300 miles of range with all of the amenities turned on in that range and I can recharge it in 5 minutes or less.

Barring some way to mass produce hydrogen that doesn't take more energy to make than is produced EV's seem to be the future. It looks like a rather slow and inconvenient future right now.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:29 AM   #18
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California tried this with the Zero Emissions law. It didn't work, the technology wasn't ready for mass adoption. So they came up with the "Partial Zero" emissions, PZEV, which still has a combustion engine but is supposed to be really clean.

I doubt you can legislate away internal combustion engines for road going vehicles in 20 years. You could force everything to at least some form of hybrid, but the infrastructure and technology isn't going to get there fast enough. Most of the 2025 designs are being worked out right now, that leaves another 1-3 design cycles left to ban combustion engines. That just won't happen.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:21 AM   #19
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Forward thinking?? "China to ban gas and diesel cars..."
Forward thinking?? "China continues to add coal plants at a rate of at least one per week"

Backward thinking?? "US has zero coal fired plants planned for construction"

Maybe EV proponents are using the magic thinking that power generates itself.
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Old 09-12-2017, 10:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by RealDealTarheel View Post
I was really hoping we'd have refined EV's to the point that they offered the same basic advantages that gasoline has had since we got a large network of gas stations before we went to switching over en mass. I have zero problems making the switch when I can buy an EV that offers me 250-300 miles of range with all of the amenities turned on in that range and I can recharge it in 5 minutes or less.
.
I think we will actually just see a paradigm shift of "refueling". Where the car is just charged when idle (at home, office, parking space) vs. going somewhere specifically to refuel. I would be fine if the range is good. Even if charging was overnight, but I could get 300+ miles out of it I would be just fine.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:03 AM   #21
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It's all about an anti auto agenda. It will start with diesels and on from there. They really prefer everyone walk to work. Read " Agenda 21 " or critique democrats against agenda 21 or at United Nations site. Next is the "rare clean water" water agenda
Seriously. Don't forget Jade Helm, either. Bad NWO stuff coming down from the blue helmets.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:25 AM   #22
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I think we will actually just see a paradigm shift of "refueling". Where the car is just charged when idle (at home, office, parking space) vs. going somewhere specifically to refuel. I would be fine if the range is good. Even if charging was overnight, but I could get 300+ miles out of it I would be just fine.
That seems like a reasonable solution, but I don't think it will cover every scenario as things are now though. There are times when I travel 300-400 miles and then still need to drive around when I get where I'm going. Even with the current figures from Tesla I'd have to wait an hour to do any driving once at a 300 mile destination(62 miles of charge per hour).

As things are now I'm fine with the wealthy paying the development costs and ironing out the wrinkles before someone with a more modest income like myself being forced into an immature product with inadequate infrastructure that would be a step back from what is already in place. Everyone will switch when it's time.

Edit: Just read all the way down on Tesla's information, if all charging stations were super charger stations we could conceivably switch earlier.
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:26 AM   #23
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Forward thinking?? "China to ban gas and diesel cars..."
Forward thinking?? "China continues to add coal plants at a rate of at least one per week"

Backward thinking?? "US has zero coal fired plants planned for construction"

Maybe EV proponents are using the magic thinking that power generates itself.
Didn't you hear?

Pixies riding winged unicorns are going to sprinkle the land with renewable, nonpolluting, no impact, free energy that powers utopia.

Never-mind we already have brown outs in some craphole places--but everyone must progress to EV!

Also, how long before power is restored to the hurricane ravaged areas...
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Old 09-12-2017, 11:36 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobM View Post
Forward thinking?? "China to ban gas and diesel cars..."
Forward thinking?? "China continues to add coal plants at a rate of at least one per week"

Backward thinking?? "US has zero coal fired plants planned for construction"

Maybe EV proponents are using the magic thinking that power generates itself.
China itself isn't adding much coal power at all, in fact it canceled 100+ plans that were in the planning stages. They seem to be serious about cleaning up their own country.

Chinese Companies however are planning 700+ new coal plants OUTSIDE of China. These are private companies that are being paid to build coal plants in Egypt, Vietnam, Pakistan, etc. Until those countries make a change private companies will still build plants for them.
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Old 09-12-2017, 12:35 PM   #25
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I'm still disappointed that the rapidly swapable battery concept didn't go anywhere... I think Japan tried it for a little while with taxis? Retrofit gas stations and oil change stations for automated battery swap. Pull in. 3 minutes later, your dead battery is charging, and you've got a brand new one to drive off with. You lease your battery. Swap it out based on your lease agreement. Not really needed for in-city stuff, but for those who are scared of range, having stations along freeways would allow worry free longer distance travel.

I recognize the challenges with a battery model like that, but really, it's one way to get more people to buy into EV...
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