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Old 12-30-2017, 05:09 AM   #1
VladiWrX
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Default Simplest path to FUELING 500-550whp?? on E85

I've a relatively simple question, and after looking at build threads/dyno plots, discussion threads, searching the forums, and just generally poking around, I've seen tons and tons of different ways to "skin this cat", many seem really over complicated (or overbuilt if you will) and some seem so simple that I'm not sure if I'm missing something.

I've two friends with cars both of which are struggling with fueling. Both are STREET cars, with the occasional drag strip pass, nothing special. Both have the most basic of fuel setups and I know both will need this addressed.

car 1) built 07 sti with a turbo setup that should support 500-600whp. Currently on ID1050x and DW300 pump hardwired with DW relay kit with upgaded rails and 07 regulator. As you can imagine, it absolutely laughed at this fueling setup and pegged the IDC at 430whp on e85 and started to lean out. 22.5psi

car 2) built 15 sti with a setup that should support 500whp. Currently on ID1000 and AEM 320lph plump and 07 sti regulator. No hardwiring (yet). It also pegged the IDC at exactly 430whp on e85 and leans out with any more power. 21psi


Now, I've seen double pumper setups, I've seen surge tank setups, big lines, fancy regulators, hardwiring, the whole 9 yards, but my question is simple: what is the SIMPLEST way to fuel a 500whp street car?

Would a hardwired dw300 or wally 465 on ID1300's or ID1700's work? The main goal here is safety and simplicity. If I don't need huge feed/return lines with surge tanks and all sorts of other gizmos, I would prefer not to run it. I would also not really need much overhead either, so again no need for fuelling 800whp or something else equally nutty.

I'm looking for advice from people who've done this before or really know their way around a fuel system. Also I'm really hoping that there's a commonly known "path" after years of people running e85 by now.

Thanks for your input.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:43 AM   #2
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2008 STI Built motor and cams billet crank with dom 3.5 modified with 35r turbine wheel, Running Dual radium Intank Walbro 460s wired off 2 solid state relays and controlled by ecu staged and ramped.
Radium fuel rails running in series AN8 feed and return with turbo smart fpr2000 fuel pressure reg AN8 fitting aswell, Bosch Motorsport 1650cc injectors car makes 500whp easily on 24 psi with plenty of fuel left.
Donít skimp on fuel setup especially with e85, dual pumper setup is required for e85 and this sort of power, minimum an6 preferably an8 lines and fittings including high flowing fpr needed otherwise you will have fuel pressure issues guaranteed!, been through the whole scenario with fueling a lot of trial and error and research.
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:06 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jusmaz View Post
2008 STI Built motor and cams billet crank with dom 3.5 modified with 35r turbine wheel, Running Dual radium Intank Walbro 460s wired off 2 solid state relays and controlled by ecu staged and ramped.
Radium fuel rails running in series AN8 feed and return with turbo smart fpr2000 fuel pressure reg AN8 fitting aswell, Bosch Motorsport 1650cc injectors car makes 500whp easily on 24 psi with plenty of fuel left.
Donít skimp on fuel setup especially with e85, dual pumper setup is required for e85 and this sort of power, minimum an6 preferably an8 lines and fittings including high flowing fpr needed otherwise you will have fuel pressure issues guaranteed!, been through the whole scenario with fueling a lot of trial and error and research.


Also no such thing as the simplest way to fuel our EJs for 500whp, there is one way to do it properly and it takes time and can be costly unfortunately.
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Old 12-30-2017, 01:55 PM   #4
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I disagree on the no easy fueling solution...ID1300-ID2000s and a Wally 465 with a FPR should get to about 500 and if you need more than run 2 wallys with 1600-2000cc

Search PPB and youíll see plenty of cars running that simple setup making the power your looking for. If cars get tracked a surge tank would be a good idea
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Old 12-30-2017, 04:06 PM   #5
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Appreciate the input, keep it coming guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jusmaz View Post
Also no such thing as the simplest way to fuel our EJs for 500whp, there is one way to do it properly and it takes time and can be costly unfortunately.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but the system you outlined sounds like it's 700-800whp capable. It sounds really nice, but seems excessive for what I need. I'm just a firm believer of keeping things as simple as possible on a street car. On a race car this would be a different situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
I disagree on the no easy fueling solution...ID1300-ID2000s and a Wally 465 with a FPR should get to about 500 and if you need more than run 2 wallys with 1600-2000cc

Search PPB and youíll see plenty of cars running that simple setup making the power your looking for. If cars get tracked a surge tank would be a good idea
Oh I've been browsing PPB for a lonnnnng time lol

I actually see quite a few cars with hardwired 465's and ID1300 hitting 500-550 on pre-08 FPR. Nothing else. And then I see others hitting the same power figures with a seriously over the top fuel setup, and I wonder: are the minimum mods setups basically on thin ice, or are the overbuilt setups overly excessive for peace of mind?
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jusmaz View Post
2008 STI Built motor and cams billet crank with dom 3.5 modified with 35r turbine wheel, Running Dual radium Intank Walbro 460s wired off 2 solid state relays and controlled by ecu staged and ramped.
Radium fuel rails running in series AN8 feed and return with turbo smart fpr2000 fuel pressure reg AN8 fitting aswell, Bosch Motorsport 1650cc injectors car makes 500whp easily on 24 psi with plenty of fuel left.
Donít skimp on fuel setup especially with e85, dual pumper setup is required for e85 and this sort of power, minimum an6 preferably an8 lines and fittings including high flowing fpr needed otherwise you will have fuel pressure issues guaranteed!, been through the whole scenario with fueling a lot of trial and error and research.
I've made over 600awhp on the stock fuel lines. Your setup is absolute overkill for 500whp, at that point your just adding unnecessary heat to your fuel. A dw300 or walbro 450, some fuel rails and a regulator are all you need.
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:06 PM   #7
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So the lines are not a restriction at that point, but the rails are?
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro60modman View Post
I've made over 600awhp on the stock fuel lines. Your setup is absolute overkill for 500whp, at that point your just adding unnecessary heat to your fuel. A dw300 or walbro 450, some fuel rails and a regulator are all you need.


On what dyno hub dyno? Dw300 or Walbro 450 single pump running hard wired is good great way to heat up your fuel lol and itís no issue making that power figure but for how long is the question? Sounds Like a ticking time Bomb hold your breath every time you give it a hit and risk a 10k engine no thanks.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:01 PM   #9
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My setup is pretty simple and made 480whp on 31psi boost, 40psi base fuel pressure on E70 with no fuel pressure drop off and relatively low IDC's on a low reading mustang dyno. It should make another 50-70whp or so on the new engine and a few more small mods I'm doing. I am trying to come up with a fuel pump controller situation to keep the fuel a bit cooler, and may upgrade to a Visconti hanger with a Walbro 485 as well.

DW300C
iWire hardwire kit
ID1300X
IAG rails
IAG fuel rail dampers
Aeromotive FPR
-6 lines run in flow through parallel
Stock lines tank to underhood
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Old 12-31-2017, 02:28 AM   #10
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Why does everyone on NASIOC ignore the Bosch 044 pump?

For the 2007 car-

044 pump (single for 500 whp; consider dual if you go higher)
MSI in-tank kit (dual pumps will require a more complex solution)
ID1300 injectors
iWire kit (or just buy the Cooper 37700 module for a fraction of the price and build the kit yourself)

...and that's it.

Pump(s), injectors, and electrical supply are the key players here. Things like rails, parallel kits, rail dampers, etc. all claim to fix a problem; if you don't have the problem they fix, they do nothing but complicate a system that can remain fairly simple with these goals. Make sure you have a problem before wasting money on these parts.

Fuel pressure regulators should also be used based on your needs - your tuner should decide on using an adjustable or not. I prefer retaining OEM differential pressure whenever possible. If you can buy good injectors that meet your needs at OEM pressures, there's little reason to increase the pressure at all.

-6AN lines from tank to rail with a good inline Bosch filter replacing the in-tank filter is a good idea, but not entirely necessary.

A really basic surge tank will not hurt - normally I wouldn't recommend this for a street car, but 034 Motorsport and MSI both make incredibly simple kits that can actually make the system a little easier to set up. 034's surge tank is a fully enclosed 044 pump that aids in mounting the pump external to the fuel tank, while MSI's solution simplifies the dual pump mounting.

Pretty much all of this applies to the 2015 car, as well... but some of the parts might need a little more fabrication as I don't know of anyone making 044 in-tank kits for this model year.
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
Why does everyone on NASIOC ignore the Bosch 044 pump?...
Cause it's not baller? Joke aside I bet it's some of the operating noise (which is subjective), not being a drop-in (without extra adapter kits), and the conflicting E85 compatibility scattered all about the internet. Personally the 044's flow-vs-psi and long term durability are hard to best. That 044 surge tank is interesting due to it's simplicity and overall size.

I just stuck to upgrades for fuel injectors, fuel pump, and a real filter. Always thought it was more so due to my disinterest in finding mounting locations for all that other stuff (rails, adj fpr, An lines, etc). I know ethanol use does add some caveats that I am not used to. So maybe there is something I'm overlooking yet. Although it does seem like an abundance of overbuild fuel systems are being used now. Even in a time where there are really good large capacity injectors available.

Last edited by JarHarms; 12-31-2017 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 12-31-2017, 02:42 PM   #12
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I made 540 on a dyno dynamics with a pretty simple fuel setup. Iag rails and lines, aeromotive 340 pump, 2000 injectors and an aeromotive fpr. 45 base pressure. I was kinda worried that the pump would be to small but at 35psi out is holding 80 psi rock solid.
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Old 12-31-2017, 06:52 PM   #13
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Are you logging fuel pressure? I got significant fuel pressure drop up top with 1000cc injectors and a single dw300 intank pump. Fuel pressure is logged with my ECU. Still had injector headroom but pressure drop told me I needed more pump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rideit636 View Post
My setup is pretty simple and made 480whp on 31psi boost, 40psi base fuel pressure on E70 with no fuel pressure drop off and relatively low IDC's on a low reading mustang dyno. It should make another 50-70whp or so on the new engine and a few more small mods I'm doing. I am trying to come up with a fuel pump controller situation to keep the fuel a bit cooler, and may upgrade to a Visconti hanger with a Walbro 485 as well.

DW300C
iWire hardwire kit
ID1300X
IAG rails
IAG fuel rail dampers
Aeromotive FPR
-6 lines run in flow through parallel
Stock lines tank to underhood
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VladiWrX View Post

I actually see quite a few cars with hardwired 465's and ID1300 hitting 500-550 on pre-08 FPR. Nothing else. And then I see others hitting the same power figures with a seriously over the top fuel setup, and I wonder: are the minimum mods setups basically on thin ice, or are the overbuilt setups overly excessive for peace of mind?
Exactly that’s all that’s needed and can be done on stock lines and rails but they arnt that expensive to upgrade so if you got the funds they should be done. I think nost people go over board for down the road mods or they don’t like IDC getting over 80%?

Others have mentioned similar opinions only other thing I’ll mention is that the Bosch 044 is loud compared to the Wally 465 which I thought was actually quieter than my 255 I replaced it with
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:00 PM   #15
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Appreciate the discussion

I guess it's also worth noting that we recently tuned a 13 sti on ID1300's, upgraded rails/engine bay lines, and an aem 320lph pump. Fuel pressure past 6k would drop really hard, resulting in 105% IDC at redline at only about 430whp. We replaced the AEM with a Wally 465, no hardwiring (yet) and the IDC dropped to 85-90% at redline at 470whp. All on a cobb (07 sti) regulator.

Next step of course is hardwiring that pump and hopefully hit 500whp with relatively safe duty cycles. So I agree the biggest issue here appears to be the ability to hold fuel pressure from 6k-redline. This seems to be the theme with all 3 cars (though the other two definitely have undersized injectors at the moment as well).

Last edited by VladiWrX; 01-01-2018 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:54 PM   #16
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Hard wire makes a big difference, so does bumping the base fuel pressure a few psi
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Old 01-01-2018, 01:29 PM   #17
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A member here made more than that on e85 with a single DW300, a lot of people go overboard on their fueling systems. I've actually seen several here do it with very simple fuel setups, which begs the question why so many others are running 2-4 external pumps and complex fuel control systems. It seems like an extreme jump to go from 600whp on one pump to 700+ on several more pumps. You don't see hundreds of 1000+whp imprezas riding around to justify how extremely overfueled many of them are.

Here's the first that comes to mind:

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2785052
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Old 01-01-2018, 01:46 PM   #18
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Ha, I even posted in that thread way back confirming whether he really only used 1 hardwired dw300 to achieve that power

Well that's definitely good to confirm. Like I said, if these were race cars I wouldn't even think about it, they would get "the works". But they're not, and realistically won't exceed the power goals stated.
I just want to make sure I'm not missing or overlooking something.
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Old 01-01-2018, 03:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Are you logging fuel pressure? I got significant fuel pressure drop up top with 1000cc injectors and a single dw300 intank pump. Fuel pressure is logged with my ECU. Still had injector headroom but pressure drop told me I needed more pump.
Yes I am logging for fuel pressure through my accessport as well, as my tuner said he will not keep tuning passed the point of pressure drop. Are you hardwired? Proper voltage supply is KEY. Unfortunately after harwiring I was seeing ~65psi base fuel pressure with an OEM GD style regulator, so I did the lines, rails, and regulator immediately after. Another key thing is dropping base fuel pressure a bit for more headroom on high boost, or a large turbo so you don't need to run a ton of boost for your goal. I doubted it would support this much too, but I've heard of several cars at 550-600whp on the DW300C, AEM320, and Aeromotive 340 on a few pages and it was already in there.
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Old 01-01-2018, 05:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JarHarms View Post
Personally the 044's flow-vs-psi and long term durability are hard to beat.
This is it, right here - people just look at the static flow rating most of the time and forget that this is a system with a dynamic pressure. The 044 pump excels at maintaining a stable flow across a wide range of pressures.

The reliability is proven, as you mentioned - this is exactly why it is the OEM pump on many high output European cars (Porsche, and I believe some Mercedes).

Yeah... it's loud. We're also talking about a 600 whp Subaru here. If you wanted that much power and a quiet/comfy car, you should have bought a used CTS-V. The second someone tells me the best choice for a fuel pump won't work for them because it's loud is the moment I stop paying attention to them. If you want the best choice but you also want a compromise, you don't know what you want and you should really figure that part out before you open your wallet.

If your ears are really that sensitive, you can always apply concrete matting (Dynamat, etc.) to the back of the rear seat and floor around the fuel tank access hole since you're clearly not going to be taking the car to a track where the weight actually matters.
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Old 01-01-2018, 05:20 PM   #21
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They aren't "loud" when they come oem in high end vehicles, and they are also not the cheaper aftermarket versions. Not sure why you decided to go off on a noise level rant. Mounting an external pump to the frame will automatically be louder, even some of the aftermarket in tank pumps are louder...that's already widely accepted.

He was asking the simplest route, which is an in tank high flowing pump that will make the power. It's been proven and I don't see people on the forums griping about their Deatschwerks pumps crapping out. People don't keep the pumps at that hp level non stop, the pumps are most of the time running a very low duty. An external 044 pump adds complexity that isn't needed. I'm curious how you would compare something like the average 044 style pump's capability to a 450lph walbro or DW300 in tank for example? Both are pretty beefy pumps and at most you would want to upgrade the power and ground wires and relay them if running constant speed.

The walbro 450 for example, excceds the capability of a legit bosch 044 pump, even at only 12v. When it's running at normal voltage of 13.5 it far exceeds.

http://walbrofuelpumps.com/walbro-f9...-fuel-pump-e85



Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
This is it, right here - people just look at the static flow rating most of the time and forget that this is a system with a dynamic pressure. The 044 pump excels at maintaining a stable flow across a wide range of pressures.

The reliability is proven, as you mentioned - this is exactly why it is the OEM pump on many high output European cars (Porsche, and I believe some Mercedes).

Yeah... it's loud. We're also talking about a 600 whp Subaru here. If you wanted that much power and a quiet/comfy car, you should have bought a used CTS-V. The second someone tells me the best choice for a fuel pump won't work for them because it's loud is the moment I stop paying attention to them. If you want the best choice but you also want a compromise, you don't know what you want and you should really figure that part out before you open your wallet.

If your ears are really that sensitive, you can always apply concrete matting (Dynamat, etc.) to the back of the rear seat and floor around the fuel tank access hole since you're clearly not going to be taking the car to a track where the weight actually matters.

Last edited by 2slofouru; 01-01-2018 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 01-02-2018, 11:21 AM   #22
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walbro 460 drop-in, 1700cc squirters (1300's won't be enough), rail upgrade (pick your favourite brand), turbosmart FPR800.

over 600 is when you need to start redoing the lines IIRC.
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Old 01-02-2018, 11:56 AM   #23
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Interesting: are the rails a known restriction at 500? I see rails and engine bay lines mentioned basically everywhere, while lines from tank to bay are always mentioned as optional.

We are about to install the DW hardwire kit onto the 15 just to keep the IDC below 100% until the next step which is bigger injectors and supporting mods.
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Old 01-02-2018, 12:32 PM   #24
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The most important thing is the FPR. We're talking WAY above what stock was designed for, and a thumping great pump that'll have stronger fluctuations/cavitations in pressure - worst case you can get one of the adapter plates that go on the end of the OEM rails that you then run a line from to a FPR mounted on the firewall or similiar.

This thread is worth a look: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...382976&page=46
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Old 01-02-2018, 02:23 PM   #25
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guess i can post what wont get you 500whp.

Wally 450 hardwired
decapped 950cc injectors
stock lines to iag rails
aeromotive FPR set to 58psi base
e80

and like mentioned above, i only went to aftermarket regulator and rails because stock regular wouldnt go below 70psi at idle

made 427whp on a mustang. Fuel pressure still falls off but not as bad as the 255

log
https://datazap.me/u/terryjr/fuel-pr...17&zoom=84-230
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