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Old 10-20-2018, 05:29 PM   #1
subtle_smoker
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Default EJ22T Build Questions

Hey guys,

Frequent lurker, constant researcher and rare poster. If the answers exist, I couldn't find them after looking through a few dozen threads.

So after a lot of research on my dream build for an IAG motor, an opportunity arose to get an EJ22T. Needless to say, I took the bait and I'm now more confused than ever trying to set a build plan. Motor has unknown Wiseco pistons currently but is otherwise factory. Currently, I have a '98 2.5RS that has had an EJ257 swapped in along with the whole '04 STi harness and ECU. Some of you might remember it as Skully's RS with the PPG 5-speed. My goal is about 400whp with only mild boost.

Anyway, from my current research, I believe that utilizing a Phase 1 crank and the D25 AB820 EJ255 (06+ WRX) heads would be the best combo mechanically and should bolt up with no machining or modification. Now for the questions.

1. Can I retain my '04 STi ECU and AVCS functionality?

2. I'd like to manage CR with pistons, rather than headgaskets, as I've heard that thicker HGs can alter timing and are more prone to failure. Can anyone recommend a HG thickness for this combo? Shooting for a CR only slightly under 9 for more consistent boost and some better bottom end torque.

3. Are there any inherent benefits to, or would this combo necessitate, a Phase 2 crank?

4. Just to confirm, OEM EJ22T oil pump and JDM turbo water pump are best? Thoughts on low-temp thermostats? Car will see occasional auto-x and potentially track use in the future.

Once all of this is confirmed, I'll start looking more into rods/pistons/valvetrain upgrades. Open to suggestions on all of that as well.

Thanks guys!
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Old 10-20-2018, 05:56 PM   #2
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Phase 2 cranks are stronger and have better oiling capability. Machining for the thrust bearing isn't that costly.
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Old 10-20-2018, 07:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snow_bound26 View Post
Phase 2 cranks are stronger and have better oiling capability. Machining for the thrust bearing isn't that costly.
I've read that certain Phase 1 cranks have oiling improvements too. More curious if I need a Phase 2 for any aspect of the AVCS or anything.
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Old 10-25-2018, 01:55 AM   #4
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I have a 22T/205 hybrid that works really well. Build thread: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho....php?t=2696523

I used OEM EJ25D MLS head gaskets which probably gives me about 8.5:1 compression. For internals I stuck with the stock phase 1 crank, new OEM bearings, STi rods, and Wiseco 22T pistons. I chamber matched the 205 heads by hand (not a bit deal). I used the stock 22T oil pump (cleaned it, checked rotor clearances) and a regular USDM WRX water pump. I also threw in a set of STi cams and valvetrain components since I found a set for only $90. Not sure how big of a difference it actually made.

I get about 350-360 whp and about 310 tq @ 4250 ft on 91 oct with a 20G-XT. I've been DDing for 3 years now and beat on it regularly so I think my build turned out OK.

If you want to use the Wisecos, it's a good idea to chamber match the heads, or get a set of JE hybrid pistons. My buddy runs the JEs in his 22T/205 hybrid and they work well too, but are pretty damn noisy.

I don't see why you couldn't retain the phase 1 crank and your AVCS. When I was researching my build I came across the consensus that the phase 1 crank was only good for 300 whp but I think that was just repeated. I feel like I could hit 400 whp with my engine if I had a larger turbo or upped the redline or had better gas, lol.
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Old 10-25-2018, 02:18 PM   #5
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1. 04 STi will work just fine with the D25 heads.

2. Custom pistons would be the way to go. I order them all the time through JE. As for headgasket thickness, I'd aim to use a gasket that will either A. restore cams to the correct spacing from crank shaft for cam timing or B. use the best gasket and use eccentric pulleys to adjust timing.

3. I'd machine for the #5 thrust bearing location and use a phase 2 crank.

4. Any 10mm oil pump will be just fine. I'd probably bump to an 11mm if keeping the squirters (also something you can take advantage of if going custom piston). JDM water pump is mumbo jumbo. I do think the cast impeller is better and that the bent sheet metal was nothing other than cost savings.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 10-29-2018 at 01:36 PM. Reason: PHASE 2 CRANK
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Old 10-26-2018, 12:47 PM   #6
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Thanks for the input guys!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
3. I'd machine for the #5 thrust bearing location and use a phase 1 crank.
Why this particular combo? Wouldn't this require a unique bearing and machining on the crank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyposeur View Post
If you want to use the Wisecos, it's a good idea to chamber match the heads, or get a set of JE hybrid pistons. My buddy runs the JEs in his 22T/205 hybrid and they work well too, but are pretty damn noisy.
The block I happened to pick-up already has Wiseco pistons in it. I'm just not sure which bore size they are, since they make two. I haven't opened up the block yet. The smaller size lines up near perfectly with the D25 combustion chamber so it actually saves me some trouble.
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Old 10-26-2018, 02:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle_smoker View Post
Thanks for the input guys!



Why this particular combo? Wouldn't this require a unique bearing and machining on the crank?



The block I happened to pick-up already has Wiseco pistons in it. I'm just not sure which bore size they are, since they make two. I haven't opened up the block yet. The smaller size lines up near perfectly with the D25 combustion chamber so it actually saves me some trouble.
To use the phase 1 crank with the machining you would get two sets of bearings and use the larger bearing that goes on the #3 on the #5 as well. Many people who do the #5 machining use an STi crank.

There will be a part number on the face of the piston. Clean them up and you should be able to see what it is. Then look them up in the product catalog: http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/Autom...eteCatalog.pdf
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyposeur View Post
To use the phase 1 crank with the machining you would get two sets of bearings and use the larger bearing that goes on the #3 on the #5 as well. Many people who do the #5 machining use an STi crank.

There will be a part number on the face of the piston. Clean them up and you should be able to see what it is. Then look them up in the product catalog: http://www.wiseco.com/Catalogs/Autom...eteCatalog.pdf
Wouldn't a Phase 1 with #5 thrust require crank machining as well though? At that point I feel like a Phase 2 STi crank would be better but I don't really want the longer stroke. I think I'll have to do a little more research here. I swear there is a Phase 1 crank that purportedly has the best oiling capabilities of any crank, but I can't find that thread now.
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:18 PM   #9
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I believe the phase ll 205/207 75mm crank has double cross drilled mains. That would probably be the best oem option as for as oil for your bearings.
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:30 PM   #10
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Anyone know which headgasket will maintain the proper cam/crank distance with the D25 heads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scruff3333 View Post
I believe the phase ll 205/207 75mm crank has double cross drilled mains. That would probably be the best oem option as for as oil for your bearings.
That sounds right but I really didn't want to machine for the thrust bearing change. Oh well. Thanks for the help on that!
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:34 PM   #11
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97*Ej22E*HG, if not from cometic with slightly thicker if heads and block has been decked.*
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle_smoker View Post
That sounds right but I really didn't want to machine for the thrust bearing change. Oh well. Thanks for the help on that!
If your not wanting to machine the thrust. I think you can run the phl 75mm stock crank, stock sti rods, wiseco ots pistons, ej22t Hg. That will result in a lower CR. so just turn up the boost.
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Old 10-29-2018, 12:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle_smoker View Post
Wouldn't a Phase 1 with #5 thrust require crank machining as well though? At that point I feel like a Phase 2 STi crank would be better but I don't really want the longer stroke. I think I'll have to do a little more research here. I swear there is a Phase 1 crank that purportedly has the best oiling capabilities of any crank, but I can't find that thread now.
Oh yeah, forgot about that aspect.

IIRC the phase 1 crank that you are trying to find is super rare and hard to find.

There are a few dual thrust cranks out there (Manley, if they still make them), and K1, but they are about $1500 or so.

I wouldn't have minded having my 22T machined for #5 thrust, but the block was out of an auto so there wasn't any significant crank play. And if your power goal is about 400 whp the stock phase 1 crank will work just fine.
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Old 10-29-2018, 01:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle_smoker View Post
Why this particular combo? Wouldn't this require a unique bearing and machining on the crank?
It was a typo. I meant phase 2. They come with machining for a #3 thrust so that they're backwards compatible, but to use the #5, you just machine the block to accept the standard bearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scruff3333 View Post
I believe the phase ll 205/207 75mm crank has double cross drilled mains. That would probably be the best oem option as for as oil for your bearings.
That is correct. Common US part number ends in 240 for the revised, dual drilled, 75mm crank.
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Old 10-31-2018, 06:39 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by scruff3333 View Post
If your not wanting to machine the thrust. I think you can run the phl 75mm stock crank, stock sti rods, wiseco ots pistons, ej22t Hg. That will result in a lower CR. so just turn up the boost.
The 22T HGs are still composite. I blew a set on my 93 SS, completely stock. I prefer the OEM EJ25D MLS Head Gaskets (Part no. 11044AA610) for 22T hybrids.
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Old 10-31-2018, 06:54 PM   #16
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The 2.5 bore gasket on a 2.2 bore? Does it have any effect on the quench area? Think I'd probably go cometic route.
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Old 10-31-2018, 07:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scruff3333 View Post
97*Ej22E*HG, if not from cometic with slightly thicker if heads and block has been decked.*
Do you know what gasket thickness from Cometic will give me the right spacing? I see plenty for the EJ22 with a 98mm bore which should be perfect, but about four different thicknesses. Block has not been decked.
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Old 10-31-2018, 08:21 PM   #18
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Quote:
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The 2.5 bore gasket on a 2.2 bore? Does it have any effect on the quench area? Think I'd probably go cometic route.
Yep. Works fantastic and has proven itself is a lot of 22T hybrids.

It's .055" thick. With the 205 heads and my Wiseco pistons with a .055" thick hg the static cr will be around 8.35 and a quench of .043".

The 2.5 gasket bore opening wasn't much larger than a stock 22T gasket when I compared them so it wasn't like the engine bore opening was overhanging very much. I was a little concerned at first about the overhang, but the 22T gaskets had an overhang as well, iirc about 2mm less in diameter.

Everyone's results may vary but I've been DDing my build for three years, most of that time at 350 whp.

I thought about cometics but had a friend who had some issues with his, and other reports about them failing led to me deciding on OEM MLS gaskets.

EDIT: Found a pic of the HGs on the 22T block in case anyone is interested:

Last edited by monkeyposeur; 10-31-2018 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 11-02-2018, 06:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyposeur View Post
Yep. Works fantastic and has proven itself is a lot of 22T hybrids.

It's .055" thick. With the 205 heads and my Wiseco pistons with a .055" thick hg the static cr will be around 8.35 and a quench of .043".

The 2.5 gasket bore opening wasn't much larger than a stock 22T gasket when I compared them so it wasn't like the engine bore opening was overhanging very much. I was a little concerned at first about the overhang, but the 22T gaskets had an overhang as well, iirc about 2mm less in diameter.

Everyone's results may vary but I've been DDing my build for three years, most of that time at 350 whp.

I thought about cometics but had a friend who had some issues with his, and other reports about them failing led to me deciding on OEM MLS gaskets.
I really appreciate that picture for perspective. Thickness seems really high though compared to what Cometic offers. How's your low end torque? No issues with timing over the years?
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Old 11-03-2018, 12:48 AM   #20
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Low end torque was instant when I ran a TD04. I get about 310 tq with the 20G. 22s don't get as much torque as a 2.5. I like the 22T for coolness and nostalgia factor though. It's a rad block. But a 2.5 block would net me more whp and tq.

I haven't had to modify the tune since I upgraded the turbo. Learning view doesn't show any timing issues, but I had a rad tuner. When I was getting my setup tuned for the 20G Phatron had to pull timing because of knock due to using 91 oct and high IATs. High IATs were due to the SPT short ram I was using at the time. Once I went back to the stock airbox IATs were much more predictable and the tune was a lot easier to dial in. I asked Phatron for a conservative tune. I could have run it more to the ragged edge but engine longevity was semi important to me.

I couldn't find the highest whp dyno plot but here is a plot of one of the revisions on my setup. I like this plot though since it shows the TD04 in blue vs the Blouch 20G-XT.



I'm not saying my build is perfect. But it's a good reference for a reliable setup.
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Old 11-03-2018, 07:04 PM   #21
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Years ago when everyone in the US was churning out EJ22T 2.35 short motors, most were just throwing rear thrust cranks into the old block regardless ( well Axis was anyway ) and running them as centre thrust, despite the crank not having those thrust faces machined smooth.
And despite this being incorrect...there never seemed to be any problems ?....which is pretty surprising really.

But having the block modified for rear thrust is easy, and you do not need special bearings. And once done, cranks are a cheap off the shelf item.
And there is no good reason not to use a 79mm crank if you're having to buy one. May as well go that little bit bigger.

As for rods...any cheap aftermarket rod will easily handle 400hp, and JE definitely make great pistons. But there are many options.

EJ22T is a great block and will easily handle double what you're asking when built right.
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Old 11-05-2018, 08:30 AM   #22
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I'd be leary of the thin H-beam rods. They're the only ones notorious for failing.

If you're going for big power, 79mm cranks are a bit of a time bomb. But I'm talking real race car use and 500+ lb-ft torque and 8500 RPM red line.

Of course the 75mm crank will allow it to be more of a screamer but I'm pretty sure the OP is just looking for a street set up.
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Old 11-05-2018, 01:46 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle_smoker View Post
I really appreciate that picture for perspective. Thickness seems really high though compared to what Cometic offers. How's your low end torque? No issues with timing over the years?
The 25d, 22t, and 22t wiseco pistons all sit right at or just above the deck and need a thick Gasket. Also both the weisecos and jes are meant to go with 25d or 205 heads and using the stock 22t heads will bump the compression ratio up about a full point over what is listed.
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Old 11-06-2018, 04:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post

If you're going for big power, 79mm cranks are a bit of a time bomb. But I'm talking real race car use and 500+ lb-ft torque and 8500 RPM red line.
What do you mean by time bomb? I would assume the 79mm crank would be more reliable and provide a bit better low end with the longer stroke.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
EJ22T is a great block and will easily handle double what you're asking when built right.
Is there really any strong advantage to the rear thrust bearing position? My big concern is having a standard #3 bearing in a spot designed for a thrust bearing on a crank that's made for a rear thrust. I haven't looked into this so heavily so maybe these concerns are invalid. I was pretty set on a 75mm crank but I want the low end since it'll be primarily a daily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
The 25d, 22t, and 22t wiseco pistons all sit right at or just above the deck and need a thick Gasket. Also both the weisecos and jes are meant to go with 25d or 205 heads and using the stock 22t heads will bump the compression ratio up about a full point over what is listed.
That works since I'm planning D25 heads as of now based on all my research.
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Old 11-06-2018, 08:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subtle_smoker View Post
What do you mean by time bomb? I would assume the 79mm crank would be more reliable and provide a bit better low end with the longer stroke.




Is there really any strong advantage to the rear thrust bearing position? My big concern is having a standard #3 bearing in a spot designed for a thrust bearing on a crank that's made for a rear thrust. I haven't looked into this so heavily so maybe these concerns are invalid. I was pretty set on a 75mm crank but I want the low end since it'll be primarily a daily.



That works since I'm planning D25 heads as of now based on all my research.
Use whatever crank you want. As for advantage, not really other than readiness/ease of supply of whatever crank you choose.

If using a non OEM crank, some will be machined for both thrust positions so you'd be covered.

I'v never come across any 79mm crank failures myself though ( attributable to the crank itself ) and if you have to buy a crank anyway, it's more or less free power/torque.
If your 75mm crank is in good order to use, then obviously that saves some money.
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