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Old 02-06-2019, 02:29 PM   #1
badfrogg
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Default Anyone want to share Closed Deck CNC file with me?

I know. you think I'm just trolling for a flame thread here, right? But really. what is the average consumer of build engines going to do with that file anyways. Plus, this information is just going to die off as EJ motors fade away into history. So why not share. I figure that I will end up doing it myself but it sure would save me a bunch of time not to have to do all that modeling from scratch.

I once asked for help on this form with engine building. I really never understood why builders keep such close secrets. For instance; what bearing clearances match up with what oil and with what oil pump?...

The replies i got was to go build some engines, test and then do it again to figure it out on my own.

If EJ Subarus were competing is some high dollar competitions I would understand "trade secrets". But Subarus are all but dead now, ya know?...

Anyways. If anyone wants to PM me that file, I'd appreciate it.
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Old 02-06-2019, 03:49 PM   #2
Turn in Concepts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badfrogg View Post
I know. you think I'm just trolling for a flame thread here, right? But really. what is the average consumer of build engines going to do with that file anyways. Plus, this information is just going to die off as EJ motors fade away into history. So why not share. I figure that I will end up doing it myself but it sure would save me a bunch of time not to have to do all that modeling from scratch.

I once asked for help on this form with engine building. I really never understood why builders keep such close secrets. For instance; what bearing clearances match up with what oil and with what oil pump?...

The replies i got was to go build some engines, test and then do it again to figure it out on my own.

If EJ Subarus were competing is some high dollar competitions I would understand "trade secrets". But Subarus are all but dead now, ya know?...

Anyways. If anyone wants to PM me that file, I'd appreciate it.

I can answer some questions in this regard. To answer your first question, no. Nobody who assembles these motors to make a living is going to share that data. Your chances of someone who is a DIY guy and figured it out are much better as they are of the same mindset as yourself, BUT I do not know of anyone who has done so from a DIY position.

Despite the end of life of the EJ forthcoming it will still be a relevant engine for those who make a living from them for quite some time to come. Hell, we STILL get calls from people looking to have an EJ205 refreshed or built, and the end of life in a production car was 15 years ago for that one.

Builders keep close secrets because it has cost them lots of money to develop those secrets. If it's a prolific builder who is willing to try new things or do research then lots of money can easily turn into hundreds of thousands of dollars over time. How is that possible you may ask? Well, there's the racing aspect if they race. To do well, and always try to be ahead of the competition as you are always trying new things, and that cost adds up. If you have a customer who is willling to let you try something new you do that as well, and sometimes, unfortunately, it doesn't work so you fix it under warranty. Again this can get expensive. Compound this over the number of engines you produce and the number of years you are producing them and you will see why it can easily add up.

As for trade secrets they are still very relevant even without high dollar racing competition. Why would I share the information and data that I have spent a LOT of money on to develop only to share it so "Joe Blow Race Engines" can now undercut my price of an engine to the customers I'm trying to attract? Why would I willingly give away things that make my assembly special and invite the competition?

Let me step up on my soapbox for just a moment. There seems to be this feeling out there that the guy assembling your engine is just a cog in a machine. Take matching parts and just have the cheapest dude out there put the motor together. That's not how it works.

I'll use an analogy here. Lets say you have two piles of ingredients. Both are the exact same in every way shape and form. On the left you have my mom, and on the right you have the head chef from a world famous restaurant. You ask them both to make you the same dish using the supplied ingredients. Now, my mom is a pretty good cook. She'd make me a perfectly fine dinner using the ingredients. On the other hand the professional chef is going to make the same dish with drastically different results. In the end I get dinner from both, and while one is dinner, and seems to do ok, the other is going to absolutely amazing.

Why will it be amazing? Because that chef has spent years educating himself beyond what a normal person would. That chef is always trying new techniques. That chef has invested in equipment that is beyond the use of a normal person. In the end that person has become a specialist in his field and he knows it.

He also knows that if he tells everyone how he did it then the competing restaurant across the street is going to take the information and use it, and he will lose business because of it.

So to reiterate:

1) Despite the parts, how your engine is put together has a huge bearing upon it's quality, longevity, and performance.
2) The people who do this for a living do it for a LIVING. They pay their bills with this knowledge, they feed and clothe their kids with this knowledge, sometimes they get a rare vacation and need to pay for it somehow.
3) They have invested in special equipment to do these things.
4) They have invested huge amounts of time and money to get to this point.
5) There ARE people and shops who would take that information and use it for their own gain and not give a second thought about it. In fact they would relish the chance to take that information without having to pay the price to get that information.
5a) A very good example is look at all the knockoff companies out there. They don't design. They don't research. They copy and paste... and then undercut the market against the guys who did the actual work.
5b) Sadly there are many who do not see a problem with that.

So, while this answer may come across as my being an ass it is the truth of the situation.
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Old 02-06-2019, 04:12 PM   #3
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^well said

anybody who does that for a living (pretty much the only people who will have the data) would LAUGH at the idea of handing it to a random dude, LET ALONE a random dude on the internet who may as well just post it up permanently for nothing!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-06-2019, 04:25 PM   #4
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Find a place that has a CMM with a laser scanner. Bring them your block, have them scan it, then create your closed-deck file from the scan. Presto!

(Did this for some JDM projector internal headlamp brackets that will allow me to bolt in RX350 projectors. Just need to clean up the scanned file and have the parts printed.)
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Old 02-06-2019, 05:42 PM   #5
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Isn't this the same guy that was asking for someone to help him build his engine for free a few months ago?
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:53 PM   #6
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Lock this thread - no should have had to respond.


Chinese flavor in the house. (manufacture and sell, but copy and sell cheaper)
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Old 02-07-2019, 03:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
Find a place that has a CMM with a laser scanner. Bring them your block, have them scan it, then create your closed-deck file from the scan. Presto!

(Did this for some JDM projector internal headlamp brackets that will allow me to bolt in RX350 projectors. Just need to clean up the scanned file and have the parts printed.)
^right

basically, find someone with an Eighty Thousand dollar piece of equipment and have a highly skilled employee there put a ton of time into doing a job for you for nothing.
piece of cake!
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:10 PM   #8
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Ok ok. Turn in Concepts makes the point well enough. I am not a professional builder or machinist, just a DIY'er. I dont have any other outlet for companionship in this car hobby of mine. I will only build a few engines in my lifetime and I enjoy the DIY aspect. Its suck that this car stuff is a pay to play affair and not so much a community of folks just havin fun.

Anyways. I got the file done. I scanned the block on a flatbed scanner and then just scaled it to measured dimensions. Did up a Solidworks and sent it!

I did all of this in one night. Of course the accuracy is not where the pros are at but its just plugging holes for Pete sake.

I won't ask anymore for help. Ill just do it, fail, try again and figure it out.

Don't worry, I wont post the file and ruin your business LOL!



Last edited by badfrogg; 02-11-2019 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
^right

basically, find someone with an Eighty Thousand dollar piece of equipment and have a highly skilled employee there put a ton of time into doing a job for you for nothing.
piece of cake!
Don't exaggerate. the Haas Super Mini Mill 2 is only $40k. And the highly skilled person... Yeah well I did bring pizza and beer so... You do get what you pay for. I believe that.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:38 PM   #10
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Very cool!!!
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:43 PM   #11
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Should post the file anyways.

I am all about DIY.
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Old 02-11-2019, 03:22 PM   #12
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Great Job doing it yourself badfrogg. sorry you had to start from scratch.
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Old 02-11-2019, 05:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
^right

basically, find someone with an Eighty Thousand dollar piece of equipment and have a highly skilled employee there put a ton of time into doing a job for you for nothing.
piece of cake!
Holy hell, I never said that service would be free, did I?

Taking a scan of the block-to-head mating surface is, at best, a two minute job with a laser scanner. If you're taking datums with the CMM, then yeah, it'll take a long time. I'd wager than the cost of doing something like this (having a company scan a part and give you a raw file, not a finished product) would cost someone less than $200. But I could be wrong, I can have coworkers help me with this sort of thing, so haven't had to look into pricing.

A used Romer arm is WAAAAAAAAAAAY less than $80k. Out of my budget for damn sure, but not even half that cost seven years ago...

Quote:
Originally Posted by badfrogg View Post
Don't worry, I wont post the file and ruin your business LOL!
Post the file, dooo eeeeeet!
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Old 02-11-2019, 08:23 PM   #14
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I dont know about CMM or laser scanners. I just held the block from crashing through on a cheapo flatbed document scanner. The picture it made was slightly out of scale but I just put in the known dimensions measured with some good quality calipers and tweaked the picture till it lined up. then just traced it with SolidWorks, yeah by hand.

It was good enough for me. The CNC does not belong to me but I did the work, with a little direction from my buddy. I had to take out his vise. He made me rebuild it and clean it. I also had to put it back and reset the machine and clean everything before leaving.

All in all, I really enjoy this kind of stuff. We nerd out on machinist work but he could care less about building engines.

I would have loved to put a little more time into the model but when your CNC buddy calls you and says that the machine will be idle all day you have to just jump at the opportunity to go get some free CNC time in.

I did run out of time to model the water and bolt passages so I will need to just do those on the Bridgeport by hand. That thing is idle all the time now days. But I made the model, cut the block and cut the plugs all in one evening. They are .001 over, or something like that. We'll see if they go in once I freeze them.


Last edited by badfrogg; 02-11-2019 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 02-11-2019, 08:42 PM   #15
badfrogg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post

Post the file, dooo eeeeeet!
You guys are trying to get me in trouble, I just know it.

Really. if you guys want a closed deck model, done by an armature with a $59 hp doc scanner that is untested and yet to have water or bolt holes then you know how to PM me.

Oh, and this is a 705 block. I have no idea if it will work with other castings.

Last edited by badfrogg; 02-11-2019 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:07 PM   #16
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Just a small pro tip, You should have cut both sides of the block to control the fit (it has draft after all) and make a flanged step for the inserts to sit on.

I've yet to do this on an EJ, ironically, only an Ecoboost V6.

I was coming in here to see DIY and was expecting a converted bedmill in someone's garage, not a newer (control panel give away) Super Mini Mill 2.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:22 PM   #17
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Yeah, each water passage is cut to a 1/4" depth and over like .030 or so. The 1/4" plugs sit on a shelf once they're all the way in. Once that done I'll take it to a shop to have it board honed and surfaced. I can't do that with the Haas. Well the surface I could.

The idea is I will put those plugs in some dry ice and then hopefully be able to tap them in until they seat on the shelf.

Last edited by badfrogg; 02-11-2019 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:56 PM   #18
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Man i have an ej251 case in my garage. I am tempted to do this to them. They're a dime a dozen where I am compared 255 and I guarantee once closed decked they're 95% as strong as a 255/257.
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Old 02-12-2019, 09:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badfrogg View Post
Yeah, each water passage is cut to a 1/4" depth and over like .030 or so. The 1/4" plugs sit on a shelf once they're all the way in. Once that done I'll take it to a shop to have it board honed and surfaced. I can't do that with the Haas. Well the surface I could.

The idea is I will put those plugs in some dry ice and then hopefully be able to tap them in until they seat on the shelf.
Ah, I see your steps on second look. Did you have any radius on the cutter? Then likewise a larger accompanying chamfer (also helps to center when inserting) on the inserts? If you only took 0.030" pretty sure that's a no. Just best practice to radius as the sharp corner will be prone to cracking.

Also, you can do all of the work with the Haas...it's probably more of if you have the tooling to do it.

We used liquid nitrogen but dry ice could work. Just use fast hands. Aluminum will quickly transfer heat from the block into the inserts.
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Old 02-14-2019, 02:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Ah, I see your steps on second look. Did you have any radius on the cutter? Then likewise a larger accompanying chamfer (also helps to center when inserting) on the inserts? If you only took 0.030" pretty sure that's a no. Just best practice to radius as the sharp corner will be prone to cracking.

Also, you can do all of the work with the Haas...it's probably more of if you have the tooling to do it.

We used liquid nitrogen but dry ice could work. Just use fast hands. Aluminum will quickly transfer heat from the block into the inserts.
Yep, Radius and chamfer. The casting had a radius in the corners already. thats why it worked.

see!

Also, Thanks for commenting and making suggestions. That's awesome!

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Old 02-15-2019, 05:35 PM   #21
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.........
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:38 AM   #22
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Love a great underdog story

<popcorn>
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