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Old 03-25-2003, 07:23 AM   #1
JoeT
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Titanium

Default My 2000 Legacy 2.5T

Hi All,

Finally got my dyno chart for my Turbo Legacy Project.
Just a couple of notes while looking at this chart.

1) This is on the stock internals that's why we had to turn down the torque / power above 5K.
2) The stock 10:1 Compression ratio still there
3) This was done at 7 PSI

In a nutshell here's the equipment list:
Maxim Works Headers (WRX)
WRX Cross member (Slightly modified)
TD04 Turbo (WRX)
Japanese Auto Injector Adapters ( http://www.japanese-auto.com )
WRX Fuel Injectors
Aeromotive RRFPR
Toyota Supra Fuel Pump
Brullen Custom Downpipe
Brullen 2.5" exhaust (torque)
Autronic SMD / SMC ECU Full Standalone Engine Management system
Custom Adapter Harness
Tuned by Yoshio
Work done by Yoshio
MR2 Temporary Intercooler

Bottom line = The car is fast... Really really really fast...
There were lots of anomalies with the Legacy GT engine, they are electically not the same as the 2.5RS. We use a 2 position cam position sensor, and a high resolution crank sensor similar to the WRX. The 2.5 RS uses a 9 position cam sensor and a 6 position crank sensor. This is what gave us the most headaches, since no one made an ECU for the car.

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Last edited by JoeT; 05-18-2004 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 03-25-2003, 08:17 AM   #2
cardin555
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Wow! 260hp? Was it dyno'ed in 2wd? What intake manifold did you use? How is the drivability? How much did you invest in this project?
(sorry for all the questions )
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Old 03-25-2003, 08:22 AM   #3
JoeT
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Hey Eric,

Don't ask
Don't ask
Don't ask

Intake manifold was the stock 2000 model, we used Japanese Auto injector adapters so that we would fit any injector we wanted, just incase the WRX injectors weren't enough.

It was done on a 2WD Dyno, but with the Dynapac and the way it does it's calculations, it's the same results betwen 4wd and 2wd.

So If this were put on a 4wd Dynapac Dyno, it's the same results. This is WHP BTW, not Crank HP. This way there's no guessing what the power would be at the crank.

Driveability is interesting to say the least, you have to get used to using only the first 3 mm to 5 mm of the go pedal since the power builds up so fast.

Last edited by JoeT; 05-18-2004 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 03-25-2003, 10:17 AM   #4
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Please keep this thread updated. Pics would be great too. Next year it will be a decision whether to go engine swap or build a 2.5T. I understand you don't want to get into costs, but would you guesstimate it would be cheaper to do a swap (plus neccessary mods) to gain equal horsepower?? I know you have listed elsewhere other mods you have done, but could you give a complete list of your mods to date as well.

Sounds terrific!! Hope you continue enjoying!!
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Old 03-25-2003, 11:49 AM   #5
KD7000
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Thumbs up

260 + hp is a fantastic number! Nice work. I'd love to feel that much power in my car.

And at only 7 psi, too. How hard was it for you to avoid turning the boost up?

Great stuff. Keep us updated.

-Brian
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Old 03-25-2003, 12:22 PM   #6
PHATsuby
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WOW! if only i could see those numbers some day. now that i have my hood though its a step in the right direction.

we need pics again!!!

Quote:
There were lots of anomalies with the Legacy GT engine, they are electically not the same as the 2.5RS. We use a 2 position cam position sensor, and a high resolution crank sensor similar to the WRX. The 2.5 RS uses a 9 position cam sensor and a 6 position crank sensor. This is what gave us the most headaches, since no one made an ECU for the car.
does this mean if i get a Link Plus it will not operate correctly on my car? even if it is from a 2000 MY with the MAP sensor? that would be a bitch.

once again those are sweet numbers, how about some video too

Ben
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Old 03-25-2003, 12:42 PM   #7
JoeT
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If the link plus comes with it's own trigger wheel, you'll be alright. PhatSuby, we have the same MY of Legacy, so you'll have the same issues unless the link comes with the crank trigger wheel.


Also, I dont' know about the validity of people using the stock 280 CC injectors and getting astronimical power (claimed) because at 180 WHP we ran out of injector duty cycle on the stock injectors, and had to get injector adapters to use the WRX injectors. Even then we're running the injectors at 55 PSI, so that we can have a really safe overhead.

As for the 7 psi, that's the street tune, the car is tuned to run at 10 PSI for racing. I'll let y'all know how it lasts with 10 PSI of boost.
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Old 03-25-2003, 01:25 PM   #8
Cajual
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Somebody's taking me for a ride...

It's so nice to have one of the best tuners right here in Toronto!
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Old 03-25-2003, 01:36 PM   #9
bwolf33
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JoeT, so how much are you into this project? What is your final goal, like HP, or what ever?
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Old 03-25-2003, 01:44 PM   #10
JoeT
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Interesting Question, hummmmm.

I went the expensive route because I didn't plan on going any further. Having said that, I have a 2.5 block in my garage waiting for forged internals and custom closed decking. Is it ever over.

Take a close look at the equipment list, none of those components are inexpensive, there are less expensive ways to get to your goals. My goal was to get instant acceleration out of the hole so I can kick the Turbo Miata's out of the arena (hopefully) at this years races. Of course, in Canada, this changes my class from C1 stock to C-mod, but I'm trying to go for FTD.

As far as what my goals were, I think I got it, only time will tell.
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Old 03-25-2003, 01:47 PM   #11
subiekid
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Default Re: My 2000 Legacy 2.5T

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeT

2) The stock 10:1 Compression ratio still there
wow that would keep me from turning up the boost.
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Old 03-25-2003, 01:49 PM   #12
JoeT
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Dont' worry about the Compression ratio. We've had it turned up to 14 PSI without a hint of det. The key here is the proper tuning of the standalone ECU. Dont' expect to run anywhere near that without proper engine management.
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Old 03-25-2003, 02:00 PM   #13
subiekid
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how much does the ecu cost? i am trying to run the 92 turbo ecu in my 95, having a conersion harness made so i can plug the turbo ecu into my 95 harness. i am running the ej22T out of my totaled 92. can the ecu be street tuned? can ya tune it any time ya want?
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Old 03-25-2003, 02:06 PM   #14
JoeT
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I'm using a fully programmable standalone ECU. For more details about it, you can look into http://www.autronic.com

They are not the cheapest, but in my books, they are the best money can buy. But you better be an engineer if you want to program it, there are about 100 pages of options, if you want to get into that much detail, and all the maps are extremely high resolution.
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Old 03-25-2003, 02:25 PM   #15
subiekid
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so can you get a plug and play harness for it? or do ya have ot wire it in?
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Old 03-25-2003, 02:38 PM   #16
JoeT
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I made my own adapter harness, since the later model cars require the OEM ECU to remain in place. Because it runs things like the defogger, defroster, etc. etc.

It's not that hard to make an adapter harness.
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:14 PM   #17
etam
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I know nothing about ecu management.. can Yoshio program my stock 97 ECU to control a turbo add-on? or I have to get a ecu for turbo application?
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:21 PM   #18
JoeT
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I don't know if he can program a 97 GT, but you can call him to ask. But putting on engine management is not that hard, there is only about 15 - 20 wires to transpose and 2 sets of wires to run in paralles with a couple of sensors.

No big deal, it's the tuning that's difficult. When I watched him tune on the Dyno and changed each little parameter at a time, a lot of things went over my head. But it was interesting, he used a lot of dyno time and still had to tweek it on the street to make sure it was driveable.

He's still tweeking it as we speak, little changes at a time as we discover things, specially during cold start procedures and initial warm up.

It's really interesting. The car runs great though.... Smoooooth.
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:24 PM   #19
ws6fiero
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoeT
Dont' worry about the Compression ratio. We've had it turned up to 14 PSI without a hint of det. The key here is the proper tuning of the standalone ECU. Dont' expect to run anywhere near that without proper engine management.
Holy crap your car is awesome! I had no idea that this was possible (14psi on a 10:1 engine) Did you do this on pump gas?

You are seriously making me want to supercharge my 2.2!
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:29 PM   #20
JoeT
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This was done on pump gas, but you don't want to sustain that PSI on the stock internals. It will give out at that boost pressure, unless you have forged internals, like con-rods and pistons.

On my engine in the garage, I'm planning on putting 9.5:1 compression pistons and running them at 14 psi. The torque is amazing, and the power ramp up is crazy as you can see with the Dyno chart, it's nearly vertical. When you floor the go pedal, the car literally jumps to life. This is both good and bad, it has the same characteristics when trying to drive in stop and go traffic. You have to teach your right foot to be really gentle or else you'll be meeting the car in front of you and getting really personal.
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:37 PM   #21
ws6fiero
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoeT
This was done on pump gas, but you don't want to sustain that PSI on the stock internals. It will give out at that boost pressure, unless you have forged internals, like con-rods and pistons.
I would imagine that could wreak havoc on the internals, but I am still very impressed. I was pretty much just worried about preignition... I would not be using anywhere near 14 psi of boost. Or making anywhere near 260HP at the wheels!
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Old 03-25-2003, 06:44 PM   #22
PHATsuby
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Hey Joe,

i will ask Tom to as i plan on getting one of his ludespeed stage 3 kits but i believe that the link plus runs off all of the stock sensors, so even though it may take readings differently it would probably still send the same info to the ecu correct? is that logical? also i hope the link will control my regular stuff too like the defogger and such, i believe it is supposed to but maybe not, wow that would suck.

also, if those references to running your numbers on stock injectors was for me, i will be upgrading to 440cc injectors, so hopefully that should help. what size are you running? i am sure i prob still wont get your numbers, anything close would be awesome especially that curve, too bad my resolution isnt that good i dont think.
thanks

Ben
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Old 03-25-2003, 07:00 PM   #23
JoeT
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Hi Ben,

That's the major problem with the stock sensors. The signals have to be interpreted by the ECU. If it's a 6 position crank trigger, there are 6 square waves sent to the ECU, there is no translation.

_-_-__-_-__-_-___-_ (in 1 revolution)

If it's a high rez crank trigger, there are lots more signals put through.

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_____-_-_-_-_-_-_-_____-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_____ (in 1 revolution)

I'm running 440cc WRX injectors running 55 PSI which make about 500cc's. You'll need a set of RevLab Fuel Injector adapters to make it work, because the Subaru 280cc stock injectors all have the funky air bleed purge control holes at the bottom. It makes fitment of any other injectors a real pain in the bottom.

With the Rev-Lab injectors, you can use WRX injectors in any size that fits your requriements. (440, 550, 800 / STI)

Hope this helps. I don't want anyone to go through the pain of discovery that I had to go through. Feel free to ask more questions.
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Old 03-25-2003, 08:29 PM   #24
PHATsuby
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hmm could have sworn i replied, but i guess not.

thanks for the offer for help, it looks like i may be needing it now. i cant believe they changed the EJ25 that much in one year. i have the rc engineering SL-440 injectors, that apparently work in the 2000 2.5 RS, but you are saying that these wont work in my car? i guess even if i dont need them would i be able to use the adapters to make the injectors fit better? i have heard they dont fit too ideally by themselves but havent heard anyone using adapters, they usually just O-ring them, if i do need them where can i pick them up and how much will they run me? will the adapters work even if the injectors arent from a wrx?

also do you think if the trigger crank thing is a problem there would be a way to fix it on the link? or would i need a completly diff engine management? i have no clue what else would work because everything else is made for the impreza too.
thanks for the help.

Ben
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Old 03-25-2003, 08:49 PM   #25
RSKwannabe
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Joe T,

I am green with envy. Good job! Like the others, I would really like to know what is required to get those numbers. Are you running a turbo kit or is everything custom fabricated.

As long as you are under $10K, seems like you have a bargain compared with the 2004 Legacy 2.5T.

Also, how is the tranny holding up? Did you upgrade or are you using the stock one?

Thanks

Joe L
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