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View Poll Results: Which brake pads?
Hawk HP+ 0 0%
Endless SSY 0 0%
Project Mu HC800 0 0%
Ferodo DS2500 0 0%
Other - listed below in thread 2 100.00%
Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-30-2017, 07:40 PM   #1
under pressure
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Default 'Downgrading' from a BBK

I want to run 16's and I do not track my car. (Doesn't mean I still don't want to drive it)

Current setup is Prodrive Alcon front 4 pots and Brembo 2 pot rears on an 04 wagon. Coming from a layman, this setup is phenomenal. It performs very well and feels amazing, everything from initial bite to the ability to moderate the amount of force being put through to the system. I really enjoy the feedback consistency and how it responds at the pedal. That said, my only other long term experience is with stock 06 wrx sedan everything, including tires, and I ran right through that setup. I'd like to think I've learned quite a bit since then and I'd like to avoid reliving that experience moving back into the Subaru 4 pot setup

Along with better tires I have upgraded lines, and will continue to run (even if unnecessarily) upgraded fluids. I have purchased a set of DBA 4000 T3 rotors and am currently looking into pad options (incoming poll)

My main question is, how do I keep as much of that pedal feel and responsiveness to input as I can?

Can something like a master cylinder brace offer as much improvement as some claim? Am I going to kick myself for changing the setup?

All thoughts and opinions welcome, thanks
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Old 03-30-2017, 08:46 PM   #2
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Confused...did you say that you want to avoid the Subaru 4 pot/2 pots? They're fine brakes with the right pads and you can fit 16s and some 15s as well.

A MC brace does help a little bit. Stainless lines may help slightly. Most of the time pedal feel to most drivers comes down to pad choice. What kind of tires do you use?

- Andrew
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:45 PM   #3
Todd TCE
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The Wilwood factory 12" DPR four pot will fit 16s. Even if you bump it to the slightly larger 12.2". (the base 12.0 was for 15" rally wheels)
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Old 03-30-2017, 10:03 PM   #4
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MC brace does very little. If you REALLY want feel, get a master cylinder spacer.

As far as pads go, I've used the HP+ and DS2500. They are both good pads, but I would probably run DS3000s next time over the DS2500s. They need a little warming, are rougher on the rotors, but they definitely have a better bite.
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Old 03-30-2017, 11:38 PM   #5
under pressure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceComp Engineering View Post
Confused...did you say that you want to avoid the Subaru 4 pot/2 pots? They're fine brakes with the right pads and you can fit 16s and some 15s as well.

A MC brace does help a little bit. Stainless lines may help slightly. Most of the time pedal feel to most drivers comes down to pad choice. What kind of tires do you use?

- Andrew
What I meant was, I thought I had some hot **** braking capabilities with my 4 pots, stock pads and rotors paired with whatever half decent discounted tires I was putting underneath the car, and now I know better.

I am currently planning on going with the Subaru 4 pots and want to maximize their functionality. Tires are Falken Ziex
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd TCE View Post
The Wilwood factory 12" DPR four pot will fit 16s. Even if you bump it to the slightly larger 12.2". (the base 12.0 was for 15" rally wheels)
Damn, and someone just barely sold a front pair of those here for a pretty decent price too IIRC. Looking into those quickly, they do have a nice slim profile, something to consider, thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
MC brace does very little. If you REALLY want feel, get a master cylinder spacer.

As far as pads go, I've used the HP+ and DS2500. They are both good pads, but I would probably run DS3000s next time over the DS2500s. They need a little warming, are rougher on the rotors, but they definitely have a better bite.
I'll make sure to get an JDM spacer for the extra brake toquepower.

I've read a lot of reviews with people going back and forth between the upper level street and entry level track pads with everything from noise, dust and rotor wear as trade off's to heat, bite and longevity.
Having run the 2500s would you say you just got used to their abilities and want to increase it or that is was sort of substandard for your own personal needs to begin with?
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:57 AM   #6
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Keep your current calipers. They will fit with the correct 16" wheels. The rear Brembo brakes should fit in their OEM configuration.
The Prodrive Alcon calipers are suitable for 16" wheels. You will need new mounting brackets and new rotors.
I would suggest choosing a suitable wheel and then having the bracket and rotor made to suit.
This would also be the easiest option for regular switching between 16" and Tarmac configuration as brake bleeding would not be needed. The rear would only require a pad change and the front would only require bracket, rotor and pad change.
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Old 03-31-2017, 12:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by under pressure View Post
I've read a lot of reviews with people going back and forth between the upper level street and entry level track pads with everything from noise, dust and rotor wear as trade off's to heat, bite and longevity.

Having run the 2500s would you say you just got used to their abilities and want to increase it or that is was sort of substandard for your own personal needs to begin with?
Throw noise and dust concerns out the window - you can't have it all.

The DS2500 pads are good, but one thing I personally like is a VERY strong initial bite. The DS2500 pads are just more of a gradual bite which is common with street pads. Since I am running manual brakes, having a higher cf is helpful so I don't have to begin braking using 40-50% of my physical strength.

You have to look at brakes as an entire system, and one thing that people often forget about is factoring the human element into it. In my case, manual brakes and DS2500 pads mean that I'm squeezing my entire braking range into the upper 50% of my leg strength (I *can* still lock the brakes, but it's not easy) - this doesn't equal a lot of resolution in terms of braking modulation.

This is why I am interested in the DS3000 pads - after warming, a stronger initial bite and higher cf means I'll be able to stretch the usable range of braking. Obviously, with a servo (booster), you won't run into this as often since power brakes give you the ability to lock the brakes pretty much any time you want (at the expense of pedal feel).

Long story short - if you favor initial bite, the HP+ or DS3000s are probably a better choice than the DS2500s. I had power brakes with the HP+ but I don't remember disliking the initial bite on them like I do with the DS2500.

If you want an example of how much initial bite I like, go rent a newer Chevy Impala for a day - I've never driven a car with such a sensitive brake pedal
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Old 04-01-2017, 08:46 PM   #8
under pressure
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While totally viable
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukethedork View Post
Keep your current calipers. They will fit with the correct 16" wheels. The rear Brembo brakes should fit in their OEM configuration.
The Prodrive Alcon calipers are suitable for 16" wheels. You will need new mounting brackets and new rotors.
I would suggest choosing a suitable wheel and then having the bracket and rotor made to suit.
This would also be the easiest option for regular switching between 16" and Tarmac configuration as brake bleeding would not be needed. The rear would only require a pad change and the front would only require bracket, rotor and pad change.
I'm sure the suitable wheels are beyond what I'm willing to spend and probably make Volks look like discount options. And for my DD needs a smaller brake setup gives me a little more economy to play with. In a perfect world though I'd have water-cooled 6 pots, but life just isn't always fair.
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Old 04-01-2017, 09:08 PM   #9
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Not sure what your main reason for the downgrade is, but keep in mind that there are more and better tire options for 17" rims than for 16".
On the brakes: based on personal experience, There is no way to compare the pedal feel you can get with bigger rotors and pads (friction area -not an engineer but I think you need bigger calipers for this). I track my car (05 wrx sedan) and I used to have the 06-07 4 pots, after several laps the pedal started to get spongy and the braking distances longer. I switched to Stoptech ST40 up front and wrx 2 pots on the rear with Ferodo 2500 pads and it is a different car. No brake fade at all and a wide range of modulation.

My recomendation: don't do it. There are good economic alternatives on tires for 17 inch wheels out there. I just saw some dunlops on tirerack for less than 300 a set (tw 460 or so, but hey...)

Oh other than that, the Cusco mc brace has done it for me and for brake fluid I use ATE typ200

Good luck!
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Old 04-02-2017, 02:15 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by under pressure View Post
While totally viable

I'm sure the suitable wheels are beyond what I'm willing to spend and probably make Volks look like discount options.
Your comment about pricing of wheels is completely untrue.
Good luck on your downgrade.
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukethedork View Post
Your comment about pricing of wheels is completely untrue.
Good luck on your downgrade.
Exactly. I don't get this line of reasoning.
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Old 04-02-2017, 01:32 PM   #12
under pressure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukethedork View Post
Your comment about pricing of wheels is completely untrue.
Good luck on your downgrade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A-man07 View Post
Exactly. I don't get this line of reasoning.
I am certainly open to wheel recommendations and/or spec characteristics needed to determine clearance. I still don't know if custom rotors and brackets are worth the squeeze for my needs, as it would simply be nice to use a set of 16's off road for outdoor activities.

The wheels would be going on a 04 wagon without rolled fenders, and I had a hard time finding anything 17x7.5 +48 (or greater) and a spoke pattern that would likely clear. With Prodrive P7 17x7 +52 the clearances seem tight as is, but that's just relative to my experience here. The P7s are about 22lbs a piece and I'd like to shed weight there.

Considering the caliper and 330mm rotors as they are now, for example using a wheel I've looked into - model CE28N 17x7.5 +50 - What spec measurements from the wheel and prodrive caliper would I need to look at to determine if it will clear?

Thanks

Last edited by under pressure; 04-02-2017 at 01:38 PM.
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Old 04-03-2017, 03:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by under pressure View Post
I am certainly open to wheel recommendations and/or spec characteristics needed to determine clearance. I still don't know if custom rotors and brackets are worth the squeeze for my needs, as it would simply be nice to use a set of 16's off road for outdoor activities.

The wheels would be going on a 04 wagon without rolled fenders, and I had a hard time finding anything 17x7.5 +48 (or greater) and a spoke pattern that would likely clear. With Prodrive P7 17x7 +52 the clearances seem tight as is, but that's just relative to my experience here. The P7s are about 22lbs a piece and I'd like to shed weight there.

Considering the caliper and 330mm rotors as they are now, for example using a wheel I've looked into - model CE28N 17x7.5 +50 - What spec measurements from the wheel and prodrive caliper would I need to look at to determine if it will clear?

Thanks
I just ordered a set of these https://teamilluminata.com/products/...ant=3385891204
in 16x7. Paul from TI tells me these should fit my STi brembos. I will have them in a few weeks and can let you know.

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Old 04-03-2017, 01:55 PM   #14
under pressure
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Thanks Eggman definitely something to consider. I'll have to look into learning more about wheel shape/design and offset because I don't know if +20 will come close to fitting on a lowered 04 wagon. Standard offset on version 7 for a 7.5 in wide wheel is +53. It's all fuzzy to me there, but thanks for the lead on wheels.
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Old 04-03-2017, 02:02 PM   #15
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New question - Forgetting wheels and assuming economy is my next biggest concern - I don't want to spend $560 plus international shipping on rotors alone to use with the calipers as is and don't wish to incur the hassle of custom brackets and rotors.

http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Bra...eza&option=WRX

Is the Wilwood DPR kit above a better option than Subaru 4 pots? I know there was/is a Dynalite model line that is not recommended.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:44 PM   #16
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Define "better"

This is the radial mount DPr not a cotter pin DL with 11mm pads and a cheesy bracket fitting oe spec rotors. (yeah I've fixed a few of those)

Piston area is correct and not too larger per the DL.

It's top loading for easy pad changes.

2pc hats and rotors for both lighter weight and rotor options.

Kits are generally sold complete with ss hose kits.


Will it stop you in a shorter distance? Probably not. Value for the money; yes.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:28 AM   #17
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You can't go wrong with 4/2 pots and the right pad. Some stainless steel lines and a MC brace and the brakes will feel great. My girlfriend has 4/2 pots with Carbotech 1521 pads and T3 rotors with a MC brace and lines and they feel amazing. You can fit 15's if you wanted.

For brake pads I use Carbotech. I have had nothing but luck with these pads. Great bite and awesome pad life. No matter which ones you get, the street pad or autox pad is great. I daily there track pads and have no issues. The street pads don't dust too much either but the track ones dust a lot.

1521 for street
XP10 for track
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 08OBS View Post
You can't go wrong with 4/2 pots and the right pad. Some stainless steel lines and a MC brace and the brakes will feel great. My girlfriend has 4/2 pots with Carbotech 1521 pads and T3 rotors with a MC brace and lines and they feel amazing. You can fit 15's if you wanted.

For brake pads I use Carbotech. I have had nothing but luck with these pads. Great bite and awesome pad life. No matter which ones you get, the street pad or autox pad is great. I daily there track pads and have no issues. The street pads don't dust too much either but the track ones dust a lot.

1521 for street
XP10 for track
I'll second this. I really like Carbotech pads. I used the Bobcats (1521) for street and autocross for a long time. I will also suggest the Stoptech Sport brake pads. Very similar to the Carbotech 1521, but IMO they have a little higher initial bite. Neither one is appropriate for a track day, but both are more than enough for some spirited driving and autocross. At half the price of the Carbotech pads I think the Stoptech is probably the best option for the money.
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Old 04-04-2017, 02:02 PM   #19
under pressure
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In the back I have 5x100 STi rear spindles to accommodate an R180 diff currently setup with the brembo 2 pot. Will the Subaru 2 pot bolt right up to this configuration or does it require a bracket?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd TCE View Post
Define "better"
I appreciate the breakdown. As for better in my case, comparable (or greater) stopping power to the Subaru 4 pot setup with lighter components and better heat management would do the trick. Looks like the Wilwood kit would offer that.
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Old 04-04-2017, 02:21 PM   #20
under pressure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 08OBS View Post
For brake pads I use Carbotech. I have had nothing but luck with these pads. Great bite and awesome pad life. No matter which ones you get, the street pad or autox pad is great. I daily there track pads and have no issues. The street pads don't dust too much either but the track ones dust a lot.

1521 for street
XP10 for track
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post
I'll second this. I really like Carbotech pads. I used the Bobcats (1521) for street and autocross for a long time. I will also suggest the Stoptech Sport brake pads. Very similar to the Carbotech 1521, but IMO they have a little higher initial bite. Neither one is appropriate for a track day, but both are more than enough for some spirited driving and autocross. At half the price of the Carbotech pads I think the Stoptech is probably the best option for the money.
I've seen the 1521 show up across a few different forums now and it seems to have noted consistency when it comes to descriptors: good bite, low dust and long life. I'll look more into those.
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Old 04-04-2017, 04:02 PM   #21
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Diving this deep may be unimportant on a DD but for my own knowledge I am curious if anyone could offer further insight

Another kit I've looked at is the Z32 caliper / LGT rotor setup, solid cost value but first thoughts were if there would be any issues in pairing a larger rotor with that caliper and the clamping force it offers. I know it moves the brake bias forward, but 'how much' and would that bias negate the positive effects of having a larger rotor/heat sink at the end of the day?

Using the the Wilwood kit for example - the differences in pairing aluminum calipers (which I believe should handle heat better) to a rotor ring with much less surface area (also considering weight reduction)


Is there an order of importance, say component weight, rotor size, caliper heat dissipation, pad specs, etc and a way to quantify the efficiency of one setup over the other (these two or any others) in layman figures?
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