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Old 07-27-2003, 08:49 PM   #1
nmyeti
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Default Forced Performance 20G review

First off, I have to thank Carl for purchasing this turbocharger and having the stones to let us put it though itís paces.

Now with that out of the way, Iíll get to the meat of this review.

316hp on Pump Gas
380whp on C16


If you want to know the details read onÖ

Carl showed up at the shop this Saturday morning ready to rock. He has one of the cleanest looking WRX (under the hood) that Iíve ever seen. To give you an idea of what sort of guys have been working on this car, his turbo heat shield has been properly modified and reinstalled over his upgraded turbo. His Greddy BOV, running in bypass mode, is properly vented back into his intake. The car was clean, very clean. Youíd never know the motor had been out to have Pauter rods and JE pistons installed. It sounded almost stock; Iíve heard stock motors that didnít sound this good.

Iíve had some pretty rough Saturday tunes before. Iíve spent more time trying to fix the car than actually tune it. There is nothing worse than laying under a car retightening the intercooler hose clamps after every run because the kit doesnít fit or has been poorly installed. Iíve had guys show up with their cars barely in drivable condition, with sticking throttles, dead coils, or anything that else that you can imagine that keeps me from being able to do what I love best, tuning cars.

From my first look at Carlís car I knew this wasnít going to be ďone of those days.Ē Once we started tuning, I knew this was going to be a fun one.

Shop conditions were very unfavorable. We were dealing with 100+ temperatures inside (as reported by our dyno temp probe) and it was fairly humid. Not ideal conditions for making big power, but you have to play the cards youíre dealt.

We started out tuning the car at around 13-14psi of boost. It was hitting this boost pressure by about 4000rpms. I was impressed because usually we donít see 14psi on larger bolt-on WRX turbochargers this early and at this low boost pressure the car was putting down around 240whp. Once we started turning the boost up, things started happening quickly.

At around 16psi the car was making around 265whp. By 18psi it was making 285-290. My last comparable dyno tune (in 97degree in shop temps) was a stage 4 car with a FMIC. This car put down 286whp at 19.7psi peak boost. Anything more than that and the car would detonate. The heat just wasnít kind to us that day. With the 20G I was curious just how much further we could push it.

Phil and I both noticed that we could run a few extra degrees of advance with this turbocharger over the VF30. This setup, even with the extra advance, had a lot more knock-resistance. My gut says this is a compressor efficiency issue, but I donít have anything other than dyno observations to back that up.

By the time all was said and done, we managed to make 316hp at between 21-22psi of boost on pure 93-octane pump fuel. For reference thatís 30whp higher than the VF30 car I tuned just a week or so ago under almost identical shop conditions.

If we invested the time into this setup, we might have picked up a bit more HP on pump gas, but Carl doesnít really want to push the car on pump gas, and isnít out for any records. Once we managed to stabilize the tune, I recommended we move on to the C16 tuning since frankly itís just not worth it to try and eek out every last HP on pump gas when you are only going to run the car hard on C16.

I made my standard C16 map modifications (-2% MAF voltage, and 29degrees of timing at 7000rpms scaled into the rest of the timing map) and we ran the car again. First run belted out around 350whp on the same boost and still was a little rich for C16 (11.8:1). A little more boost, one more degree of timing, and a little less fuel got things up to 360whp in no time. At this point the curve was beautiful, the timing was right on, and we decided to just push the boost. The way we had this setup, the car would spike to just at 26psi and settle to around 24.5-25psi. On this boost level the car made 380whp and 330ft/lbs.

The dyno plot is beautiful. Iíll post it on Monday if I get a chance.

While Carl has built his motor, his transmission is still stock. I was more than a little afraid weíd kill it when we were finishing the road tuning. We decided it was best to invite Carl along for the road tune (more weight helps with the tuning process anyway), and he was eager to accompany us out on the road.

When we road tune a car typically Phil does the driving and I run the laptop. I trust his driving enough that I can keep my attention on the laptop. I had one bad experience where I was conducting a road tune with the customer driving, and decided that I would never do that again. While I am sure Carl can handle his car (he did after all have a 10 second Civic), we prefer to stick to whatís comfortable for us when road tuning.

Phil started to check the drivability of the car first thing and we had an embarrassing experience. The PE injectors do not require a great deal of MAF voltage to be pulled out to get them to idle well, but once you get a little longer injector on time, they respond much more like a larger injector. I unfortunately forgot to make the required modifications to the 0% fuel column to get the car to rev though those ranges. As Phil gave it a little gas, the car started sputtering and belching. This is NOT the first impression you want to make on customer about your tuning, but it was easy enough to fix. A few quick changes to the 0% column (based on previous experience with PE injectors) and we were back on the road. The car cleaned up nicely.

Once we finished the transition and lower throttle areas, we decided it was time for some higher load road testing.
Boost response was fast, and this turbo held you in your seat right up to the rev limiter. When you shifted, the car would pick right back up and if not careful before you know it, youíll be at the rev-limiter in 4th.

I canít even convey how good this turbo felt on the street. It hits with a violence that a PE turbo could only dream of. In fact it feels like an n2o car when as boost comes on. Once you hit peak torque, the car just pulls in a nice linear fashion. No muss, no fuss, just sick, sick speed.

Overall I was very impressed. This may just be my favorite bolt-on street turbocharger to date. The lag on this turbocharger is similar to an older 1818/20, but where those promise top end at the cost of a little lag, the 20G actually delivers.

Iíll let Phil and Carl post their own impressions, and I think Carl gave a ride to one of the guys that came up to witness the tune. If you guys want to chime in here feel free. When I get a chance Iíll post a few plots showing comparisons between this turbocharger and a few different 1820, vf30 and vf30+n20 setups weíve had on the dyno.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com
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Old 07-27-2003, 09:06 PM   #2
MrSwede
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I was waiting for this thread, thanks!
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Old 07-27-2003, 09:42 PM   #3
Enigma76
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wow as was i...looks amazing...whats the cost of one of these?
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Old 07-27-2003, 09:45 PM   #4
[email protected]
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Nicccccceeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-27-2003, 09:54 PM   #5
V REX
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Man I wish TXS was in Texas!
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Old 07-27-2003, 10:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Enigma76
wow as was i...looks amazing...whats the cost of one of these?
1129.00
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Old 07-27-2003, 11:16 PM   #7
silverscooby
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Sounds awesome! I want to see those dyno plots.

Nathan, I think it would be nice to see some dyno sheets overlayed from an 18g, pe1820, vf30/34, 20g etc. All with similar mods, of course.

*side note* Any guess what a set of Jun cams and some mild head work would do for a turbo like this? 20-30whp?
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Old 07-27-2003, 11:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by cjm04WRX


1129.00

ty very much
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Old 07-27-2003, 11:37 PM   #9
jblaine
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Hell, I'd almost prefer to have my car tuned on a day like that.

Thanks for the lengthy writeup.
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Old 07-28-2003, 12:00 AM   #10
norseone
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Mod list please.
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Old 07-28-2003, 02:07 AM   #11
wrexwagon
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Was this done on a UTECH?
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Old 07-28-2003, 02:10 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by wrexwagon
Was this done on a UTECH?
UTEC... yes

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 07-28-2003, 02:12 AM   #13
M32WRXin3seconds
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Default well i know which turbo im getting now...

sounds great...and its cheaper than the 1820
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Old 07-28-2003, 02:46 AM   #14
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first i would just like to say thank you to turboxs....nathan and phil. awsome guys and 100% professional tuners. also thanks to forced performance for bringing this turbo to us subaru guys cause this blows away all of the other bolt on turbos out there. IMO.

i chose this turbo with my tranny in mind. FP told me it would make about 400 to the wheels and i knew that was about all the tranny could take. plus i have nitrous so getting a bigger turbo just wasn't an option for me right now. i mean its $3500 and up for a tranny upgrade and that is just totally rediculous.

the car runs awsome. not much lag......but then again i never had full boost on my honda until 6500...hahaha. extremely nice power curve. the boost peaks @ around 27 lbs and and immediately settles to about 24-25 all the way to redline. without an external wastegate, i can't complain. and with that said, the car runs like a factory turbo charged car should.....but with only 380 to the wheels.

the mod list is:

stock head
stock sleeves w/ stock bore and stroke
8:1 je pistons
pauter rods
FP 20g port matched exhaust side
pe660's
turboxs front mount
utec
turboxs hpbc
turboxs turbo back....no cats
turboxs uppipe
clutchmasters stage 4 w/flywheel
255 intank fuel pump
nx 50 shot
greddy blow off valve
aem shorty intake










sorry about all of that 56k.
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Old 07-28-2003, 09:25 AM   #15
stickman
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damn karl, ur project is coming along nicely.
i could only imagine what kind of #'s u would have if u put in spec C cams and heads.
great hot #'s

now go pick on some EVo's

Last edited by stickman; 07-28-2003 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 07-28-2003, 11:20 AM   #16
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Nice numbers Nathan, wonder how the 20G with a 6H wheel will do
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Old 07-28-2003, 11:41 AM   #17
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Nice numbers for the 20G on a Built EJ20! Looks like this will now be the "turbo of the week". 40whp more then an 1820 with about the same spool? $400 cheaper? Making progress in the Scooby world.... Cheap turbos here we come!

I am glad this turbo performed well. It certainly did not live up to its claims of 440whp but 380 is the best that you guys have done with a bolt on turbo and that shows promise.

The PE injector issue was solved by Mike and I over 4 months ago. Tuning around it like that is really not the best way to handle it. There are mechanical differences in the injectors and those differences have electrical requirements are not being met by the ECU's driver timing. Once changed those injectors: A. Produce ALOT more fuel. B. Do not act in a dual stage and tune exactly like STI's but with more fuel.

Nice Car Jinx! Hope to see some times from it soon!

Clark
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Old 07-28-2003, 11:53 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boost_Junkiee
Nice numbers Nathan, wonder how the 20G with a 6H wheel will do
It will make alot of power. I don;t think it will lag too bad for those with fear of lag. A 6H might be too much though. I was thinking of sending mine back for a little green work.
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Old 07-28-2003, 12:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by nmyeti


They never claimed 440whp.

I was told 375whp for the 18G and 440whp for the 20G on the phone and in email. Thats ok though. I did not believe it then and it looks like even on a built 2.0 its 60whp off the mark. People will have to learn the hard way that this is not a 4G motor.Still. It looks like a kick ass turbo! And because its an old mitsu design the options are wide open for even larger more powerfull combos in hybrids. Bolt on greens and reds? or close to it? Now the comunity needs cheap shortblocks

Clark
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Old 07-28-2003, 12:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie

Now the comunity needs cheap shortblocks

Clark

Been that way for years now Clark, but you know that

Looks like Carl did a good job with his 8:1 JE's and pauter rods, Nathans comments about the sound surprised me.

So now that this ones down the line whos up for some greens? Its about time to stop taking baby steps.
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Old 07-28-2003, 12:39 PM   #21
nmyeti
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QUOTE]Originally posted by AZScoobie
I am glad this turbo performed well. It certainly did not live up to its claims of 440whp but 380 is the best that you guys have done with a bolt on turbo and that shows promise.
[/quote]

They never claimed 440whp out of this turbo. It's possible that Robert was offering you a version with either more clip to the turbine wheel or the larger 6H turbine wheel. I'd bet on the latter since he quoted me between 420 and 440whp with the 6h on a DSM.



Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie
The PE injector issue was solved by Mike and I over 4 months ago.
Clark
I am not sure what you "solved." The 660cc units on Carl's car run, as he said, "like a stock car." You just have to keep in mind the offset that is required because of the way these injectors work. Are there benefits to mapping some of the additional injector parameters in the stock ecu? Yes, but there are downsides as well, because not everyone will feel like having a re-flash once you decide to ditch the PE injectors and go back to stock. For me it makes more sense to spend a little extra time tuning the offsets correctly, or to pick a different injector.


It's not like they are a 2 stage injection system or anything. It's just one slow injector.


-Nathan
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Old 07-28-2003, 12:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by nmyeti
QUOTE]Originally posted by AZScoobie
I am glad this turbo performed well. It certainly did not live up to its claims of 440whp but 380 is the best that you guys have done with a bolt on turbo and that shows promise.


I am not sure what you "solved." The 660cc units on Carl's car run, as he said, "like a stock car." You just have to keep in mind the offset that is required because of the way these injectors work. Are there benefits to mapping some of the additional injector parameters in the stock ecu? Yes, but there are downsides as well, because not everyone will feel like having a re-flash once you decide to ditch the PE injectors and go back to stock. For me it makes more sense to spend a little extra time tuning the offsets correctly, or to pick a different injector.


It's not like they are a 2 stage injection system or anything. It's just one slow injector.


-Nathan
[/quote]

Because once the changes are made the injectors work much better. Mapping is smoother, the car runs better, bottom end power is better and control over the injector is gained.

Right now you are having to make very little corrections in the low ranges and large ones in the higher ranges because you are sending pulse signals the injector is not even responding too. Cycles are skipped. Hook an O-scope to the injector and see. This is why Utec/PE injector combo's are very inconsistant. They need alot of touch up and no two cars are the same. One cars Utec map may not even be in the same time zone as another cars for this reason. WOT AF will change from day to day. Its really very inconsistant.

What I have been doing is to make these changes to the rom and then unhook the Utecs ability to fire the injector. This solves alot of issues and the car runs much better. Adjusting the fuel maps frequently and inconsistancy was not an option for me or my customers. As a result alot of time was spent on the dyno working with these injectors to actually fix the problem.

As a bonus, Since you are flashing the ECU anyways you can simply expand the fuel maps for load, fix the ignition on the bottom so the Utec does not have to be mapped to the 10 column and offset the injector size so you do not need large corrections in the Utec map. Both ecutek and the utec make for one powerful combo..

CT (sorry to take this off topic)
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Old 07-28-2003, 12:59 PM   #23
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Is there some sort of love hate between you two?? Seems a falling out or no? Anyway its not for FFI Just tinted darker and darker as of late
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Old 07-28-2003, 01:52 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie


I am not sure what you "solved." The 660cc units on Carl's car run, as he said, "like a stock car." You just have to keep in mind the offset that is required because of the way these injectors work. Are there benefits to mapping some of the additional injector parameters in the stock ecu? Yes, but there are downsides as well, because not everyone will feel like having a re-flash once you decide to ditch the PE injectors and go back to stock. For me it makes more sense to spend a little extra time tuning the offsets correctly, or to pick a different injector.


It's not like they are a 2 stage injection system or anything. It's just one slow injector.


-Nathan
Because once the changes are made the injectors work much better. Mapping is smoother, the car runs better, bottom end power is better and control over the injector is gained.

Right now you are having to make very little corrections in the low ranges and large ones in the higher ranges because you are sending pulse signals the injector is not even responding too. Cycles are skipped. Hook an O-scope to the injector and see. This is why Utec/PE injector combo's are very inconsistant. They need alot of touch up and no two cars are the same. One cars Utec map may not even be in the same time zone as another cars for this reason. WOT AF will change from day to day. Its really very inconsistant.

What I have been doing is to make these changes to the rom and then unhook the Utecs ability to fire the injector. This solves alot of issues and the car runs much better. Adjusting the fuel maps frequently and inconsistancy was not an option for me or my customers. As a result alot of time was spent on the dyno working with these injectors to actually fix the problem.

As a bonus, Since you are flashing the ECU anyways you can simply expand the fuel maps for load, fix the ignition on the bottom so the Utec does not have to be mapped to the 10 column and offset the injector size so you do not need large corrections in the Utec map. Both ecutek and the utec make for one powerful combo..

CT (sorry to take this off topic) [/b][/quote]

CT, seems as though you are working against the UTEC and likely often just using it for it's ease of use and flexibility versus the Ecutek. The 10 column is their to be used as all of the rest of the colums and rows. I understand that it's simply easier pick up the ecutek and go nutz to fix things you don't want to do with the utec. But at the same time why not just completely map the Stock ECU and take the UTEC out of the loop. I could be looking at this wrong you tell me though.
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Old 07-28-2003, 01:52 PM   #25
nmyeti
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie



Because once the changes are made the injectors work much better. Mapping is smoother, the car runs better, bottom end power is better and control over the injector is gained.


CT (sorry to take this off topic)
Your expertise in this area is for another topic, but the short of my response is, this. What part of "yes there are benefits to changing injector settings in the ecu" didn't you understand?

Again... way off topic here, but a skilled UTEC tuner doesn't need an ecu re-flash to make the car drive well with 660cc injectors. It just takes some experience and time.

End of this discussion, now back to your regularly scheduled forced performance 20G review, Please do not hi-jack this tread.
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