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09-23-2004, 02:45 PM | #26 | |
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The approach described above opposes conventional wisdom and begs the question: Why did you/he choose bigger bars, which decrease left/right independence of the suspension, when you could have achieved the same benefits and retained more independence by using stiffer springs w/ the custom JIC suspension?
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09-23-2004, 02:49 PM | #27 |
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um, this is an interesting find. Stiffer front swaybar fix the understeering and provides more grip? I am not doubting since many of you tried it personaly. However, how does it compare to those who only used the thicker rear swaybar to fix the understeering?
Also for using the thicker front swaybar, is it subjected to the use of stock spring? Coilover? or any other aftermarket springs? |
09-23-2004, 02:54 PM | #28 |
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09-23-2004, 03:08 PM | #29 |
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A larger rear sway bar will increase oversteer *while braking*.
A larger front sway bar will increase oversteer *while accelerating*. And quikSTi, this is not a conventional car. Conventional wisdom does not apply. What works on a Miata does not work on a Subaru. If you want to discuss more, call me on the phone sometime... Jason Porter work 770-394-9100 |
09-23-2004, 03:10 PM | #30 | |
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Like I said, it's just my opinion. Others do quite well with a big FSB. I don't run one. Corey #89 STS Last edited by Corey; 09-23-2004 at 03:19 PM. |
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09-23-2004, 03:15 PM | #31 | |
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Look at photos of Mike King's car during the ProSolo Finale the photos show still very notable amounts of body roll and if I don't miss my guess, he was on 7k springs (~400lbs) in the front. (He used to be at 7k/9k, not sure anymore.) It also looked like he had a large rear bar but not front bar due to his lifting the inside rear wheel so high. I believe in bar balance; I don't want one significantly larger than the other. In addition to that, I also don't want bars that are too small for the rest of the suspension setup that I am running. Unless I were to go to silly high spring rates, I wouldn't be able to make my bars any smaller and still retain the grip, control, and transitional response that I require. |
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09-23-2004, 03:39 PM | #32 | |
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09-23-2004, 03:42 PM | #33 | |
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09-23-2004, 03:47 PM | #34 | |
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Just trying to figure out which approaches really result in quantifiable handling improvements w/the STi, everyone seems to have conflicting opinions about what works. |
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09-23-2004, 03:51 PM | #35 | |
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My times that day were dismal and I was very disappointed with my performance, again disappointed at the location, and the course design itself I did not feel comfortable with. Tom even ran poor times until he put on the cheater tires. I also don't remember if I had fixed my ride height problems at that point or not; this made a nice difference in balance as in noob fashion, I had my coilovers all out of whack on ride height. So really there were a lot of factors, not the least of which was me. On a personal note, I refuse to attend another event at that site as I believe it a very poor site. |
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09-23-2004, 03:52 PM | #36 |
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I can tell you is that it has made a quantifiable handling improvement in the cars that I've built, in terms of seconds per lap at Road Atlanta.
It depends on your approach to suspension tuning, though. Different driving styles will necessitate different approaches in terms of spring rate, sway bar sizing, etc. I could write a book on this subject, and in fact have written mini-novellas on other forums on it, but my fingers are tired today. Your mileage may vary. Go forth and experiment, brethren. |
09-23-2004, 03:54 PM | #37 | |
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http://www.selgp.com/sti_modifications.htm I honestly wasn't so sure about these guys until I saw them run at the Subaru Challenge; now there is no doubt that they are indeed talented drivers. Note: I didn't take it as a personal attack of any kind, merely an observation. I don't mind that you brought it up at all. |
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09-23-2004, 04:20 PM | #38 |
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I'm not talented nor am I competitive in AS - I ony get trophies because of lack of competition (it's usually myself and an older guy in a 993 Porsche who is just a tad slower than I am - which makes it fun but I digress :>) but I insstalled a Cobb 22cm FARB and it made a HUGE difference. It is correct that the Subies don't follow normal suspension laws and I couldn't believe how much understeer was ELIMINATED when I installed the bar. The car (04 STI) has a much sharper turn-in and corners as it on rails. The some tire pressure adjustments I've been able to dial in a little oversteer with makes late apexing a little easier. Best $150 I've spent on a car in a long time. Still doens't make me anywhere near as fast as the damn S2000's though. BS is really gonna suck next year.
Oh well... "Racing is life. Everything before and after...is just waiting" S. McQueen |
09-23-2004, 04:36 PM | #39 | |
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09-23-2004, 04:41 PM | #40 |
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I've got a similar question to the original poster. I've got STi V7 struts, STi Pink Springs(217#F,190#R), running -2.4 F, -1.1R camber, and I'm looking at getting sway bars to increase grip, transitional response, and dial in some more oversteer. I was originally thinking of a 21mm Front, 22mm adjustable rear bar, but now I'm thinking maybe 22F/24R would be better. Would the 22/24 combo be too stiff for my springs? Is a sway bar that big going to significantly affect my ride quality on the highway (I still have to make 5 hour road trips once a month in this car)?
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09-23-2004, 04:47 PM | #41 |
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I'd try 24f and an adjustable rear set at 22mm before trying anything bigger.
I don't think the 22/24 combo that you suggested might be too stiff in the front, although in the rear it very well may be. |
09-23-2004, 05:52 PM | #42 | |
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Last edited by quikSTi; 09-23-2004 at 05:59 PM. |
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09-23-2004, 07:27 PM | #43 | |
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The rear tires I've run from 46-48 PSI, and really don't notice much difference in the feel on course, or tire rollover. Next year I will be running RE-070s, so I'm hoping I will be able to lower the pressures and improve grip also. A recent pic of my car during cornering shows quite a bit of body roll, which I'm sure is killing my static negative camber, and I hope can be improved with a front sway. Since I'd like to maintain the balance I have on the car, I figured I would get a front and rear bar at the same time. I figure a WRX on lowering springs with upgraded struts, running good neg. front camber wouldn't be all that uncommon, and others might have some info. |
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09-23-2004, 07:45 PM | #44 |
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Really I don't think you need front AND rear bars unless you have severe rotation problems.
Add front bar: More front grip and better rotation. Add rear bar: Less rear grip and better rotation. |
09-24-2004, 09:37 AM | #45 |
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With a stiffer front swaybar (21mm or 22mm), is there a need to upgrade the front endlinks? Taking a quick look under my car, the front endlinks seem to be solid (unlike the rear endlinks).
Also, is there a good writeup for the installation of a front swaybar? |
09-24-2004, 10:02 AM | #46 | |
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In the dry, Tom and I were running Low 39's/38's. Fastest STS time was low 39s (Corey) and same with fast STX (Both at the divisional results). So... the course was driven the way it was supposed to be. The only changes to the course were the laydown of extra pointer cones for the numer of novices we had and maybe one more element.... that was tightened on the Subaru course vs a little more open on the Divisional course. --kC (What's it gonna be for next year?) |
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09-24-2004, 10:03 AM | #47 | |
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Just my .02 Mike 02 WRX Wagon |
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09-24-2004, 10:04 AM | #48 |
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let me chime in....Please...A front Swaybar is a great addition for those driving styles that can use it....I also think...that a bigger front bar is a 'aquired taste' ...It makes sense in a FULL on TRACK but an Autocross situation I don't think it advantagous...( above 65 mph....)....My turnin on a Autocross course is very good...with 2.75 neg camber...when I added a front bigger bar....my turnin was not as crisp...Mid corner bite was enhanced by the bigger bar but resulted in a push condition exiting the turn.....On the Track...the Bigger bar helped the situation as you are carrying way more speed for the bar to be advantagous resulting in a Very smooth Transition upon exit allowing better accerlation off the corner...Me personally...I don't like a bigger front bar...so I agree with Corey on this one...It also depends on what compensation the Suspension is providing Ie: Valving, Rebound, dampning, and Spring Rates...So unless everyone is on the same suspension...its hard to justify the advantages and disadvantages of a Front bar.....
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09-24-2004, 10:30 AM | #49 | |
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I was referring back to the Rockingham event where someone above was asking me about a local event. I didn't have any complaints with the course at the Subaru Challenge; in fact it was rather fun. According to the results, I was faster than you in the rain. Did you cone away a run or something? In the dry I ended up with a 39.45 something. My car ended up at a 38.9 for a fast time in the dry. |
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09-24-2004, 11:42 AM | #50 | |
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