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Old 11-07-2004, 01:51 AM   #1
sponaugle
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Default Water Injection Tuning Results..

I thought some of you might be interested in seeing some quick results of using water injection on the popular STI/Green combo. In a previous post (see http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555449) , I graphed some of the results of using water injection on Jeff Perrin's STI. In his case, a well pushed tune was able to get 375whp on 92 octane Oregon pump gas, and jump to 425whp with 104 Unleaded. We spent most of that tune working on the initial staged maps, and didn't really have a chance to explore the water injection effect.

We (PDXTuning) recently tuned a Green equipped STI which also had an Aquamist 1S system with a 1mm nozzel. We did about 40 dyno pulls during the tune session, and I'm going to highlight a couple here. I'll have to post back later with the actual dyno graphs, as I don't happen to have that detailed data with me.

None the less, there are a few interesting things to see.

First pull with this car was at wastegate boost to provide a starting point for the tune. The car came in at 257whp. Stock STIs run arond 235 on this dyno, so we had signicant room to expand the tune.

After about 18 pulls, we closed in on our target boost of about 20-21psi. This netted 344whp and 300 lb-ft of torque. It is possible to push the pump gas tune more, but as you push the green out of the efficiency range and push the stock pistons much more, things start to break. We were happy with this for pump gas, and moved on to the water injection.

We turned the injection on, and did an immidiate pull with the exact same boost and tune settings as before. The result: 326whp and 294 lb-ft of torque. This is about the amount of loss we expected, and similar results have appeared in other tunes. This goes to show one of the important asepects of water injection. You have to tune for it.

We spent another 20 pulls working on both the fuel and the timing. The original 344whp tune was right around 11.2:1, running down just a bit at redline. With the water injection turned on an no tuning changes, the mixture showed up as a bit richer, dipping into the 10s.

Tuning water injection is a process of pushing a bit more timing, significant leaning of the afrs, and increasing the boost. Since this is a street tune, we left the boost as is. Leaning out AFRs to about 11.8-12.0:1 netting a final result of 357whp and 316lb-ft of torque. Getting to 375 would be possible with a bit more boost, but we felt this tune was as far as we should go on a stock bottom end. While a gain of 13whp and 16lb-ft of torque may not seem like much, the amount of gain is extended significant more at much higher boost. On my personal WRX, I have been able to push an additional 2psi at a leaner AFR with WI, which nets in the 30-35whp range.

The graph below shows the three benchmarks mentioned above. You can see that the MAF values were actually a bit less at the highest HP, as was the fuel flow. The was WI with just plain water, and there is a different approach if you use a 50/50 methonol mixture.



Jeff Sponaugle
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Last edited by sponaugle; 11-07-2004 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 11-07-2004, 02:09 AM   #2
XtianLA
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Approximately how many more degrees of timing did you push with the WI system? Any detonation problems?
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Old 11-07-2004, 02:19 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XtianLA
Approximately how many more degrees of timing did you push with the WI system? Any detonation problems?
This particular tune had most of the gains made with a leaner AFR. I believe several spots were about a degree more advanced. If the boost had been raised, the relative drop in timing would probably have been less as well.
It is crucial to lean out the AFR with this much water.

Jeff
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Old 11-07-2004, 02:53 AM   #4
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Nice documentation!!

The trick is definitely to get your fuel leaned out enough to take advantage of the WI, without tuning for it the only place WI will help is when your knock limited.

Larry
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Old 11-07-2004, 06:02 AM   #5
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Congratulations ! you are one of those rare tuners that go beyond those who preaches "rich mixture is good for you", well done.

With some thought behind the safety aspect of the setup, you will being a whole new meaning of "tuning" - LEANER and MEANER
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Old 11-07-2004, 06:52 AM   #6
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Thank you! It is so nice to find someone else serious about W/I.
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Old 11-07-2004, 10:17 AM   #7
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I think you guys left a bunch of HP on the table by not using 50/50 alcohol/water, leaning just a tad more, and uping the boost to 25psi. But in the end it all depends on how the customer plans on using WI. Some like to always have it on, others like to use it as a race gas or NO2 substitute and use it sparingly. Good results
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Old 11-07-2004, 04:00 PM   #8
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Did you try to go even leaner, even north of 12.5 AFR? With the 1s system you are kind of limited, but you may be able to go even leaner than you have for more power. The Element Hydra will help you later to add more water when you need it most.

Remeber too that the water is slowing the fuel burn so additional timing may help out too. Do you have EGT gauge for tuning this car? Keep leaning until you have reached no-WI EGT and then perhaps a even a little hotter since the "no WI" is undoubtbly rich and therefore the EGT lower than at rich power or stoichiometric.

I'll be working with Phil on this stuff on the Hydra soon. Not sure the Green is for me, it's really too big, but I may go with a 20g or AVO450.

Jeff S, if you have preference let me know. You one of the only AVO450/500 experienced tuners I know with the STI, and the 20g is just a smaller Green.
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Old 11-07-2004, 05:11 PM   #9
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I'd like to see some results showing different mixtures. like 100% water to 70/30. 50/50, 30/70, and 100% meth. Has anyone ever done anything like that?
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Old 11-07-2004, 07:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racinready300ex
I'd like to see some results showing different mixtures. like 100% water to 70/30. 50/50, 30/70, and 100% meth. Has anyone ever done anything like that?
There was a quick test on the Buick list a few months back on that. The bottom line was that they found 100% methanol to make the best power on the dyno. The car being used for the test was a monster though (8 second timeslips).

On my Dodge, Ive been running 100% methanol with pump gas and am able to run 32 psi boost with a Precision SC6152S. In my opinion, methanol is the real deal.
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Old 11-07-2004, 08:11 PM   #11
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Jeff, as always on your posts, great data and documentation. I have a question on your method though (curiousity, not second guessing). I spent a lot of time with a supercharged M Coupe, tuned via software and larger injectors. Several folks with similar setups used WI when they couldn't use an intercooler (unlike myself, my setup used a FMIC). However, they took an entirely opposite approach to yours.

Whereas you've used the WI and tuned around it, they took the WI and tuned IT around the software/injectors. Meaning, instead of adjusting fuel and timing once the WI has been introduced, they adjust the nozzle size and activation pressure of the WI to make maximum power, once the car has already been tuned without the WI.

One of the benefits of the approach of taking an already well-tuned car, and adding WI to it, is that if your WI fails, or you run out of water, your car still has it's original, safe programming to 'rely on' for the ride home or the rest of the lap. If you're tuning with the anticipation that the water will be on, if it does fail or your reservoir runs out, you are going to be in a situation that you haven't tuned for.

Either way, here's a quick synopsis of some of the testing one of the supercharged guys did. First two runs are just with WI, third is with WI and the addition of a W/A intercooler + WI, last run is with the W/A but without WI.

HP TQ Run
315 273 1 4/20 WI
309 276 2 4/20 WI
337 289 1 6/30 WI / Aftercooler
317 283 2 6/30 Aftercooler

What are your thoughts about trying a similar test?

Thanks
Ryan

Last edited by RyanC; 11-07-2004 at 08:12 PM. Reason: fixed engrish
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Old 11-08-2004, 04:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC
.
.
.
Either way, here's a quick synopsis of some of the testing one of the supercharged guys did. First two runs are just with WI, third is with WI and the addition of a W/A intercooler + WI, last run is with the W/A but without WI.

HP TQ Run
315 273 1 4/20 WI
309 276 2 4/20 WI
337 289 1 6/30 WI / Aftercooler
317 283 2 6/30 Aftercooler

What are your thoughts about trying a similar test?

Thanks
Ryan
Jeff have to cover the IC with a cardbaord sheet?
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Old 11-08-2004, 04:18 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sfed 4
There was a quick test on the Buick list a few months back on that. The bottom line was that they found 100% methanol to make the best power on the dyno. The car being used for the test was a monster though (8 second timeslips).

On my Dodge, Ive been running 100% methanol with pump gas and am able to run 32 psi boost with a Precision SC6152S. In my opinion, methanol is the real deal.
Running 100% alcohol belong to a new thread - as Jeff said, a different approach is needed. The Subie is a complex piece of modern electronic and mechanical engineering, it cannot be compared directly with the Buick.
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Old 11-08-2004, 08:57 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter head
Running 100% alcohol belong to a new thread - as Jeff said, a different approach is needed.
Yes....what you want to do is take gasoline out and add methanol back in. You do this till you cant add any more methanol 70/30 or so gasoline to methanol ratio seems to be the ticket.

Or, as in my case, run your injectors till they are maxed out, then keep adding methanol as you add boost

Quote:
The Subie is a complex piece of modern electronic and mechanical engineering, it cannot be compared directly with the Buick.
While that might be true, the combustion process is the same....Oxygen and fuel! You do what you can to maximize power via timing, boost and A/F.
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Old 11-08-2004, 11:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sfed 4
Yes....what you want to do is take gasoline out and add methanol back in. You do this till you cant add any more methanol 70/30 or so gasoline to methanol ratio seems to be the ticket.

Or, as in my case, run your injectors till they are maxed out, then keep adding methanol as you add boost
.
I agree entirely with your idea. Replacing part of the fuel with alcohol may not be as easy to do on Subie as the the lambda correction factor, a/f ratio vs load maps, calculation etc are designed to run 100% gasoline. If alcohol is injected as fuel mix it may not work as well as with the Buicks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sfed 4
While that might be true, the combustion process is the same....Oxygen and fuel! You do what you can to maximize power via timing, boost and A/F.
Do not get me wrong, the Buick is a fine car but it is more forgiving than the Subie as far as what you pour in as a fuel. You may not be able to run 32psi with methanol with the subie. If you are running such a large percentage of methanol, oil dilution is a consideration not to be ignored, Subie is very sensitive on bearing seizure.
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Old 11-08-2004, 12:33 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter head
I agree entirely with your idea. Replacing part of the fuel with alcohol may not be as easy to do on Subie as the the lambda correction factor, a/f ratio vs load maps, calculation etc are designed to run 100% gasoline. If alcohol is injected as fuel mix it may not work as well as with the Buicks.
Do Subies use a wideband in closed loop at WOT? If so...thats pretty dang cool! My old school Dodge is dumb to stuff like that, so it is easier for me to trick it.


Quote:
Do not get me wrong, the Buick is a fine car but it is more forgiving than the Subie as far as what you pour in as a fuel. You may not be able to run 32psi with methanol with the subie. If you are running such a large percentage of methanol, oil dilution is a consideration not to be ignored, Subie is very sensitive on bearing seizure.
Oil dilution does have to be considered. So....you just need to be safe and change the oil often. (That is wise advice for any car running alot of boost.) On my 2.2L Dodge, I dont worry about it because the times I am on the car at 32 psi are few in number as the car sees about 1000 miles a year I know that at 500 whp the lower end will have a much shorter than stock (185 whp) lifespan.
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Old 11-08-2004, 12:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XtianLA
Approximately how many more degrees of timing did you push with the WI system? Any detonation problems?
What is "normal" timing advance for these cars both with and without WI on pump gas?
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Old 11-08-2004, 01:12 PM   #18
sponaugle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick
I think you guys left a bunch of HP on the table by not using 50/50 alcohol/water, leaning just a tad more, and uping the boost to 25psi. But in the end it all depends on how the customer plans on using WI. Some like to always have it on, others like to use it as a race gas or NO2 substitute and use it sparingly. Good results
Without question the car could have left the dyno with over 400whp. Boost is a wonderful thing. However, we are trying to not make a habit of giving people cars that will self destruct. The stock bottom end, and the pistons in particular, and not well suited to daily driving at 400+whp with this setup. Post intercooler temps get pretty hot with the green above 24psi, and not everyone is an avid listner to identify knock.

As for not using 50/50, that is an issue for later testing, as this customer was setup using only water. I'm hesitant to tune a customers car for something that they may not sign up for (that is to always run 50/50, etc). However, I will put a car back on the dyno for some more detailed water injection testing (with different mixtures) asap. Good comments.


Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 11-08-2004 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 11-08-2004, 01:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
Did you try to go even leaner, even north of 12.5 AFR? With the 1s system you are kind of limited, but you may be able to go even leaner than you have for more power. The Element Hydra will help you later to add more water when you need it most.

Remeber too that the water is slowing the fuel burn so additional timing may help out too. Do you have EGT gauge for tuning this car? Keep leaning until you have reached no-WI EGT and then perhaps a even a little hotter since the "no WI" is undoubtbly rich and therefore the EGT lower than at rich power or stoichiometric.

I'll be working with Phil on this stuff on the Hydra soon. Not sure the Green is for me, it's really too big, but I may go with a 20g or AVO450.

Jeff S, if you have preference let me know. You one of the only AVO450/500 experienced tuners I know with the STI, and the 20g is just a smaller Green.
We did bump up a bit leaner, but then knock poped up, and hp was lost bring that back into line with timing. The biggest limitation of this setup is of course the single flow nozzel. The water to fuel ratio is not constant, and in fact gets lower at higher RPM. (The opposite of what you want).

For more serious tuning, the 2D system is critical. It allows the duty cycle of the water spray to follow the fuel injectors, which provides a mure more consistant environment.

Since this was a customer tune, we didn't spend time on the dyno experimenting with either different nozzles or mixtures. However I will take that on in tuning my car, which I should have back on the dyno shortly.

Jeff
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Old 11-08-2004, 01:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC
One of the benefits of the approach of taking an already well-tuned car, and adding WI to it, is that if your WI fails, or you run out of water, your car still has it's original, safe programming to 'rely on' for the ride home or the rest of the lap. If you're tuning with the anticipation that the water will be on, if it does fail or your reservoir runs out, you are going to be in a situation that you haven't tuned for.

Either way, here's a quick synopsis of some of the testing one of the supercharged guys did. First two runs are just with WI, third is with WI and the addition of a W/A intercooler + WI, last run is with the W/A but without WI.
Thanks
Ryan
Excellent idea, and good starting point for some more tests. I think not only would changing the nozzle size help, but using a system that has a programmable duty cycle would be helpful. When using a single nozzle, you typically have to run a nozzle not to large so as to not overwhelm at lower rpm, but still flow enough at high rpm to provide some benifit.

When I get my car back on the dyno (perhaps this week), I'll start some of these testing ideas and post back the results.

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 11-08-2004, 02:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle
I think not only would changing the nozzle size help, but using a system that has a programmable duty cycle would be helpful. When using a single nozzle, you typically have to run a nozzle not to large so as to not overwhelm at lower rpm, but still flow enough at high rpm to provide some benifit.
Pardon my ignorance, but can the Aquamist system change flow rate with boost/rpm, etc?

I am only familar with the alkycontrol.com progressive kit (which is on my car) and this kit taps into the MAP sensor output and changes pump speed accordingly.
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Old 11-08-2004, 05:45 PM   #22
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What was your static flow in ml/min if you don't mind me asking, or do you even know?
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Old 11-08-2004, 06:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sfed 4
Pardon my ignorance, but can the Aquamist system change flow rate with boost/rpm, etc?
I am only familar with the alkycontrol.com progressive kit (which is on my car) and this kit taps into the MAP sensor output and changes pump speed accordingly.
If you use the single nozzle 1S system, the rate of water flow is fixed depending on the size of the nozzle. From there you can upgrade to several other systems that allow more direct control.

The 2S system allows a 3D map of water flow % based on both RPM and boost. This allows fine grained control needed to make the absolute most of water injection.

The 2C system includes the solenoid and constant pressure manifold, but allows you to use your own system for doing the PWM outputs to control water. This would be useful in the Hydra for example.

The 2D system is a step above the 1S because it has both the solenoid, manifold, plus an FIA controller that makes the water injection rate follow the rate of the fuel injectors. It is effectivlty like a 5th fuel injector, but injecting water.

If you use the 1S system the hardest part is picking the nozzle.

Here is a quick chart of the different nozzle sizes, along with their % WaterToFuel with different size injectors. I picked 40 and 90% duty cycle to represent typical turnon and max flow points.



If you were shooting for 10-12% water to fuel, and you had an STI with the 800cc injector upgrade, you might select the .9mm nozzle which gives you 11.0% at 90% fuel. Of course at only 40% fuel you would have 24.8%, which is quite a bit.

As is obvious from the chart, you could always adjust the turn on point so you do not get WI until much higher fuel flows, but that might limit your ability to tune for maximum power at lower load points.

Obviously the 2S/2C/2D would allow you a more controlled ramp. I run the 2D system on my car with a 1.0mm nozzle, which keeps me near the 10% mark. Ideally if you are above that, you should have more then one nozzle.

Jeff Sponaugle

Last edited by sponaugle; 11-08-2004 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 11-08-2004, 06:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgknestrick
What was your static flow in ml/min if you don't mind me asking, or do you even know?
Looking at the post I just made, plus the first post, one can deduce:

After tuning, fuel duty cycles were approximatly from 50 to 80% during a spray duration. Given that we were using the 1mm nozzle, and the car had PE850 injectors, that would equal to 19.9%-12.4% water to fuel. This is a good selection for this setup, although more water would not be a problem up top. (the obvious limitation of a single non controlled nozzle)

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 11-08-2004, 11:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle
This is a good selection for this setup, although more water would not be a problem up top. (the obvious limitation of a single non controlled nozzle)

Jeff Sponaugle
Just adding an FIA and HSV to that system will not allow you to add more water up top without adding an aditional jet. I know you know this but some reading might not.
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