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Old 12-21-2004, 07:40 PM   #1
dothespeedlimit
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Default p zero nero m+s versus a summer tire

I am finally in a location where i need to seriously consider a tire that can handle a little bit more than just some rain, but i am not too sure what route to take since i have no experience with non summer tires. If i go with a Pirelli P Zero nero m+s, over just a nero/so-3/other summer tire, will the loss of traction be substantial? I know that no all/multi season tire will perform close to a summer tire, but i dont want to spend all spring and summer wishing i had just sucked it up and gone with summer tire. all i am looking at is maybe a week or two of snow a year but some really cold temps for a lot longer than that.


cliff notes

Is the performance of an all season tire such as a p zero nero m+s that much worse than a summer tire to the point where if i am going to have one type on all year, i should go with a summer tire?

Thanks for any opinions or help.

Jesse
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Old 12-21-2004, 07:57 PM   #2
RayQuon
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try posting in some local forums as well. That way you'll get some more first hand experience from people that have lived in the same climates.

For the most part, where I live, I would be pretty scared to be caught with summer tires on in the snow. Most people that are concerned with all year performance usually just get summer tires, and another set of winter tires on steelies or stock wheels.

From what I've read, the pirelli all seasons are really good in the dry, but obviously won't/can't be good as a dedicated summer tire.
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Old 12-21-2004, 08:24 PM   #3
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I have the PZ-Nero's and I used to have S03's

Obviously, the PZN's aren't as sticky in the Dry as S03's, but they are pretty damn good for an all-season.

I really like the Pirellis
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Old 12-21-2004, 09:10 PM   #4
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My opinion is the same as WagonMonsters actually. They aren't going to be the stickiest of summer tires, but they are still really nice. I'd say there are probably some mid-low end summer tires that they'll hang with
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Old 12-21-2004, 09:38 PM   #5
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If you look at tirerack reviews, they seem to be on par with the budget summer tires like the ES100.

If you compare their test results to things like the S-03 or the PS2, you can see that they only a few seconds behind these two around the track. This is around the track.

It seems that, with the levels that you should push the car on the street, they shouldn't make that much of a difference.

Considering that they only cost about $100, can perform like that in the warm dry and wet, wear great, and they just got me to the mountains and back in single digit temps and near whiteout conditions; they are AMAZING tires.

I cannot stress how impressed I am with their low temperature handling. Yesterday I drove to work and it was 2F out. Today it was 40 degress out. I can tell you I noticed zero difference in the levels of grip they provided at those temps.
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Old 12-21-2004, 09:49 PM   #6
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i actually have a second follw up question about this tire. How stiff are the sidewalls ? While i was overseas last year, my genius father decided to buy a new set of tires for me but got very soft sidewalls. I proceeded to bend one of my SSR Comp rims in two places, so i'm now shopping not only for one new rim, but a new set of AS tires. I have my eyes on these.
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Old 12-22-2004, 12:40 AM   #7
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Modern all-seasons like the PZero M+S are capable of grip within 2 or 3 percent of a dedicated summer tire. To be deprived of that difference, you have to be driving a bit faster than most would recommend.

These graphs are used without permission from our sponsor's website, and are from separate tests, on different days, and on different types of cars. Still, they give an idea of the size of difference we are talking about:

On a Lexus IS300:


On a BMW 330Ci:

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Old 12-22-2004, 01:46 AM   #8
dothespeedlimit
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great info, thanks a lot. I tend to drive a bit faster than most would reccomend and also attend a track day here and there, so performance is slightly more important than versatility. From what i understand from all the info given, the nero m+s seems to do almost as well as most summer tires. however, can a heavy ass 330 really pull .93gs on street tires?

Thanks
Jesse
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Old 12-22-2004, 02:40 AM   #9
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I can't say whether the 330 can do that, but I've measured .93G in my stock wagon on Toyo T1-S's, and .96g on stock size Falken Azenis Sports (RT-215). So I'd say it's likely a good number.
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Old 12-22-2004, 03:20 AM   #10
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For perspective, a properly set-up WRX with coilovers and R compound tires will pull more than 1.2g's.

Here's a thread on sccaforums.com where a guy mentions pulling .99g in a stock STi, with the stock RE070's:

How many G's can your car pull?

Edit: ^^^ That's the thread title, not an actual question.
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:00 AM   #11
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after switching from the RE070's to the P zero nero m+s a few weeks ago, I think they're much better in the cold and in the rain, the softer (but still not soft) sidewalls reduce impacts significantly, at the expense of a very little turn in sharpness, and the expected basic snow capability is icing on the cake(though I haven't tested it yet).

So far, I'd say these are excellent all around tires. We don't have traction issues that many RWD or FWD cars have, so I think we miss out on a little of the benefit of going to a max performance summer tire (unless you track or autocross heavily in an street tire class...and if you're doing it that much, consider a second set of rims and competition tires). cornering at 10/10 on the street is not a good thing those RWD guys (or FWD guys) that are desparate to put power down benefit the most from the stickier summer tires on the street, I think. Just one guy's bad opinon, though.
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:49 AM   #12
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Comparison of G-forces from two different tests is meaningless.

While I agree the for most people's driving, a good M+S tire like the Pirelli is very decent, you also said "track day". That's not normal driving, and you'll see a bigger deficit on the track when pushing an all-season tire hard. It's not just about how much g's a tire can hold around a skid pad, but also how a tire will hold up in a 25-30 minute session.

Go with a good summer tire, if you do track days. And save your stock for winter.
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:13 AM   #13
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I'd think it would be more cost effective overall to get a cheap set of wheels and get a dedicated long wearing track tire for track duty, and run all seasons for normal driving.

I'd recommend a cheap set of 17x8 rotas or the like, and a set of takeoff RE070's for the track. sharp handling, great turn in, wear like bricks. Not the ultimate grip of an Rcomp, of course, but the wear is far better. and if you're just doing track days for fun, who cares about your ultimate G forces or lap times?

that's just me, though. If I was going to have 2 sets of tires, I think the pzero neros would be fine for spirited daily driving in all conditions, and I'd want the extra set of tires to be track specific, rather than having marginally better summer performance that I wouldn't use on the street and would wear out faster at the track.

If you needed a dedicated winter tire, things might be different, but if you can get away with an all season in the winter, I'd get a set of track wheels and tires.
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Old 12-23-2004, 12:39 PM   #14
dothespeedlimit
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stock wheels are not an option for me due to a bbk so a second set of tires/rims would be pretty expensive. after talking with tirerack, i think i might go with the goodyear eagle f1 gs d3. seems to handle the wet pretty well which is much more of a concern than snow is for me. Think i would get any rubbing with a goodyear tire if i do not get any with a Nitto with the same specs (225/40/18)? its a wagon and i had to pull the rubber wheel liner off since it would just barely touch the side of the tire. goodyears dont run slightly wider than other tires or anything do they?

Thanks
Jesse
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