Turbo Naming Convention

[keyser_soze]

You either KNOW or ACT LIKE YOU KNOW....come on you know who you are...when someone tells you they have a T3/T4 turbo and you just nod your head but have no freakin clue what they are talking about.

So...I like to make this thread and hopefully it becomes a sticky perhaps...i know very little so i put what i think i know ....correct me if i'm wrong ....i put some questions; you answer them and i update the this top thread...you ready? lets go:

most turbo's (NOT ALL) are either Garrett based or Mitsubishi based
Garrett based turbos:
GTXXR the GT means new Garret Turbo with the N dropped, XX is the model number(?), R makes it ball bearing
Example:
GT30R

APS, AVO, and HKS turbos are based on Garrett turbos

Mitsubishi based turbos (I almost don't know anything about them):
T88
TD06
TD06H
Greddy turbos are based on Mitsu turbos for example
T67
The first number is the turbine housing family so 6 is for TD06 the second one is the compressor so the compressor is from a TD07 family. H is for high flow.

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[dl337j00]

i cant....feel..my legs........keyser....

[keyser_soze]

ok so far 51 head noders have looked at this thread...where are the poeple that know everything?!

[Kingpin]

Ok... Here we go:

Mitsubishi turbos:
Td04 Frame
Td05 Frame
Td06 Frame
Td07 Frame
Td08 Frame

Stock WRX turbo is a td04. Popular combos are td05 16G(comp wheel) and Hybrid units using Garrett compressor wheels. FP green, zilla and others like I sell. Those are td06 or td05 based with 50 trim garrett compressor wheels. Greddy makes hybrid Mitsu turbos. T67 greddy is a td06h turbo with a Td07 compressor section.. Hence the name T67.

Garrett:

Older Garrett turbos are T3 or T4. Hybrid turbos where produced for 4cyl engines using the T3 hot side and the T4 cold side (compressor). Hence the name t3/t4. Popular combos include the 50 trim garrett compressor and the 57 trim and the 60 trim. Most are T04E based with a 3 inch inlet on the compressor. Some are made with the 60-1 compressor which uses the T04S compressor and 60-1 wheel. In the turbine side you can get .48 .63 and .82 AR turbines in STG3 and STG5 turbine wheels. These are non ball bearing but a few companies make BB T3/T4 turbos and some are using newer GT style compressor wheels.

Next up in garrett is the newer GT turbos. The above poster was correct. It stands for new garrett turbo. GT for short. All models with the "R" designation are dual metal Ball bearing units. These where made for diesel engines to reduce spoolup time and lower emissions. They found there way into Motorsports use and garrett came up with a few turbos for that purpose in select trims. GT25R, GT30R GT40R ect.. If there is no R on the name then the turbo uses oil/bushings for bearings.

It gets confusing but remember that alot of the GT turbos used for 4cyl or for motorsports use are hybrids. A GT30 -14 for example is a GT40 compressor with a GT30 hot side. Its called a GT3040 in slang. A GT35R is really a GT3540. It uses that same GT40 compressor but the smaller GT35 hot side. Some of these combos garrett produces while others are made by turbo shops. GT3542 for example uses the GT42 compressor. A rare beast thats good for 700-800hp.

For a good list of Garrett GT turbos you can use AVOturbo.com or turbofast.com.au. Both have a good listing of GT stuff. GT stuff is sold in two ways.. One as JUST the CHRA or center assembly or as a complete turbo. Most GT turbos you buy are not actualy made by garrett. They are made by the turbo vendor. They take a CHRA and add the housings and then sell the complete unit. This is why its important to do your homework. I have seen shops selling GT30R turbos that came with a non ported shroud compressor and a older T3 turbine housing and not the newer GT conical exit t3 housing. There is a difference... You get what you pay for.. We use only Garrett direct turbos unless its a combo that is not sold direct that must be built such as the GT3040.

As far as CHRA listings they are listed on the sites i mentioned. You can get a feel for the slang terms by looking at the part numbers.. In GT30 you can have the -10 -11 -12 -13 -14 -15 and -18. The -14 is the largest. The -12 is the cart used in the real GT30R. -10 is the smallest and used in the AVO450.

Cya

Clark

[WRXbluJ]

< =

Lots to digest....

[keyser_soze]

Thank you. your post rule! I will update the top thread... couple more qeustions:
18G, 20G etc are compressor wheel sizes used in mitsubishi turbos?
What is the H in the TD06H?
What is the E in T04E?

[zinc99]

What about IHI turbos? VF22 , VF30, VF34, VF39, VF37?!?!?!? WHY?!?!

[davidm_sh]

Originally Posted by keyser_soze

18G, 20G etc are compressor wheel sizes used in mitsubishi turbos?

18G and 20G do refer to the compressor wheels yes. Just as 05,05H,06, and 06H refer to the turbine wheel.

Originally Posted by keyser_soze

What is the H in the TD06H?

H = Hi flow. Basically it is a larger turbine wheel with a slightly different (more open) design. So the 06H is larger and will flow more than the 06.

It's a pretty logical ordering actually:
-On the hotside from small to large - 04, 05, 05H, 06, 06H, etc...
-On the coldside from small to large - 13G, 15G, 16G, 18G, 20G, 25G, etc...

[StealthWRX]

all this info is making my head hurt...very informative thread, this is stuff i have always wanted to know! thanks

[bikerboy]

Best thread I have seen in here in a week! Even better than "installed DP now P2096" LOL Good one Keyser!

[bboy]

IHI Turbos:
Named sequencially so a VF22 tells you nothing except it was made before a VF39. Housing sizes are denoted with 'p' as in a 'p20' housing. What the number refers to is anybody's guess. A p17 housing is smaller than p20. Only the VF34-39 are "ball bearing" turbos (with exceptions), the rest are "thrust bearings".

PE (Power Engineering) Turbos:
IHI housing (based on the "ball-bearing series) plus Mitsubishi compressor wheels and turbine wheels. Thus a PE1820 is most likely a VF34 turbo with an 18g compressor wheel and a 20g turbine wheel (which turbine wheel, my guess is TD05).

Mitsubishi Turbos:
We can't cover them all here, so let's consider the 'usual suspects' (Keyser). Davidm_sh is all over this. The number with the 'G' is the compressor housing and wheel. A '20G' has one housing and one wheel. The usual designation is '20g-TD06H' which means that the turbo is a 20g housing and compressor, with a TD06 turbine housing and a 06H wheel. So for each hot-side 04, 05, 06 there are generally two wheel. Now, here is the wrench of the century, turns out that there is a third parameter for the turbine housing 7 cm^2 or 8 cm^2 (at least for the TD06 housing). This number refers to the 'A' of the A/R ratio such that it's either 7 cm^2 or 8. You cannot buy a 8 cm^2 housing anymore, only 7 cm^2. Why this is I don't know. If you find A/R ratios for any of the Mitsubishi turbos they are homemade measurements because I've never seen them published.

Garrett turbos:
These turbos are by far the most categorized of all. A/R ratios, compressor maps, and turbine flow maps are available for all of the turbos. The old turbos where designated by T3 or T4 these are "thrust bearing turbos". Later came the GT series (still thrust bearing) and still later the GTxxR series (ball-bearing CHRA). As AZscoobie alludes to, these turbos are made is a zillion combinations by just screwing together different housings and wheels. Lately, ATPturbo has taken to adding more numbers to the GTxxR decription. So, a GT3071R is a GT30R class turbo with a 71 mm compressor exducer measurement. They are comparing it to a GT3076R, but they just call that one GT30R instead.

How many GT30R turbos are there. Well lets do a little math based solely on what Garrett produces. You've got the -10, -11, -12, -13, -14 housings each with a different compressor wheel. On the hot-side you have 0.64, 0.82, and 1.06 A/R turbine housings and wheels. 5*3 = 15 different GT30R turbos.

Now bring in the aftermarket developers. Slowboy Racing and Full Throttle made the Garrett GT30R turbos out of each of the compressor housings. They are all mated with an identical turbine housing of their own making (one that fits the Subaru stock location). So you could add 5 more GT30R turbos to the mix. BTW the A/R of the SBR/FT turbine housing is ~0.58, smaller than the smallest Garrett turbine housing.

Next up we have APS and AVO turbos. Some of these are "based on" the GT30R, how they are "based-on" the standard Garrett configurationa is up for debate. In general I would say that the AVO (XS Engineering too) turbos are more "Garrett-like" than the APS. The APS turbos are amalgamation of IHI housing and Garrett CHRAs and Garrett wheels. The maps that APS publishes are dubious at best (my opinion). So let's say that the SR40, SR55, AVO400, AVO450 (XS500), and AVO500, and AVO600 are all GT30R "type" turbos--an additional 6 GT30R turbos.

So there are 26 GT30R "like" turbos. Isn't that great.

'Mutt' or 'Frankenstein' turbos:
Many companies offer these hybrid turbos for Subaru. Deadbolt is a big one, but TEC, East Coast Turbo, and others chip in. Primarily based on Mitsubishi turbos these come in all sorts of combinations. A variation on this theme are the Forced Performance Green and Deadbolt SuperZilla. These are Mitsubishi turbos (specifically a 20g-TD06H) that have had the compressor housing "back plate" ground out to accommodate a larger exducer Garrett wheel, specifically the "50 Trim TOE4" compressor wheel (20g wheel is 2.68 in, Garrett wheel is 3 in). The 20g compressor housing inlet must also be enlarged to accommodate the larger Garrett wheel from 2.07 in to 2.11 inches. How FP arrive at this combination is most likely through trial and error. It works well for the STi 2.5L engine.

Well there you have a diatribe on the nomenclature. Do you feel any better? I wouldn't. It's still a miserable array of variations on a theme. There are some basic rules to the naming, increasing numbers are bigger turbos (except IHI).

Compressor maps are the best way to follow the "cold-side". They are 4 dimensional graphs. If you really learn to read them, you can learn a lot about how much power a turbo can support and how early that power will be available. The most under utilized bits of data on the compressor map are the shaft speed lines. Study those and you'll learn why Garrett wheels are considered more "efficient".

Turbines are a lot trickier. Take a look at the Garrett turbine flow maps, they all reach a flow limit. Once you are at that limit you are either wastegating or building pressure. The temperature of the exhaust gas plays an unknown part in how much the "hot-side" flows. Turbos behave differently on different cars. Counter-intuatively hot exhaust flows faster. The pressure-temperature drop across the turbine turns the turbo shaft. There is a complex relationship between temp, pressure, and exhaust velocity that no one (I know) has a quantitative grip on.

The A/R ratio is a relative measure of compression or expansion within a housing. It's OK for comparing within a class of turbos, but not between classes. For instance the fact that a GT15 and GT40 have similar A/R means almost nothing except that they have a similar compression ratio housing.

Good luck. BTW I have a PDF file somewhere on this site that puts all the GT30R and GT25R based turbos together for comparison. Wait until ATPturbo comes out with more GT30R options for the Subarus and there will be close to 30 GT30R turbos.

[subalee]

hey a list of CFM's would be an awsome addition to this site .. a good basic way
to see how much air a particular compressor can flow


but don;t ask me i know nadda
and it sounds like there are some smart people watching this thread

[bboy]

There is a whole list of CFM's compiled by HotRod on this site. Look for it.

[mbiker97]

Originally Posted by subalee

hey a list of CFM's would be an awsome addition to this site .. a good basic way
to see how much air a particular compressor can flow


but don;t ask me i know nadda
and it sounds like there are some smart people watching this thread

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=278517

[jagcars26]

Great thread gentlemen,,,,it made my head ache ,,,but i did learn something,,,


Rudy

[keyser_soze]

This is great, I feel much much better now. Now I have to summarize and compile all of the above in one post! I'll promise I will but give me sometime

Also for anyone who is interested in learning how to read compressor maps etc. I know there are many on line discussions/explanations/tutorials...out of all places I found this one particularly to be pretty decent:

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...ehiclesProtege

Please don't get repulsed and not read due to the unpleasant view of the Mazda MP3

[keyser_soze]

Also Moderator...if you watching I think this has reached STICKY status

[mbiker97]

Originally Posted by keyser_soze

Also Moderator...if you watching I think this has reached STICKY status

Not even close. This is all stuff from a couple years ago.

[keyser_soze]

One more item still left. The old Garret turbo naming convention beside the the T3/T4 for example: TOE4

[Draken]

this is exactly what i've been trying to search for. Good post!

Chris H.

[RChampion]

Keyser, thanks man. You rule.

[keyser_soze]

No problem dudes, this is what forums are for

...mbiker97 maybe you can answer my qestion:
"One more item still left. The old Garret turbo naming convention beside the the T3/T4 for example: TOE4"
from couple of years ago?!

[bboy]

T04E (that's zero four) is the housing and it's still in use. There is also a T04B and a T04S. These housings are part of the T4 family, however the wheels have been updated over time, the new combos form the GT or GTR series. Here is a good link for historical Garrett data:

http://www.turbofast.com.au/ballistic.html

As far as I know there is only one place in the US to get Garrett BB turbo serviced, and that is Limit Engineering in Arizona. The head guy there John is a former Garrett employee and left before Honeywell bought out Garrett.

The problem with the naming convention is that there is none.

The PDF of GT25R and GT30R turbos is gone. I'll revise again look for errors and then post it here soon.

[ataac_flat04]

bboy... I saved what I think you are calling the PDF of the GT25 GT30 listing as a jpg. I can e-mail it to you if you want. -Chuck ninja edit: LINKY

[deadbolt]

Very good post, however I caught a couple of errors

Originally Posted by bboy

IHI Turbos: Only the VF34-39 are "ball bearing" turbos (with exceptions), the rest are "thrust bearings".

Actually the VF22 and VF34 are roller bearing, VF30, VF35, VF39, and VF40 are all thrust/bushings style.

Originally Posted by bboy

PE (Power Engineering) Turbos:
IHI housing (based on the "ball-bearing series) plus Mitsubishi compressor wheels and turbine wheels. Thus a PE1820 is most likely a VF34 turbo with an 18g compressor wheel and a 20g turbine wheel (which turbine wheel, my guess is TD05).

Actually the Power Enterprises PE1820 starts life as a VF22, the PE1818 is the VF34 version. Only the compressor is different it still uses an IHI turbine although slightly modified. A Mitsubishi turbine will not work in an IHI due to many differences in turbine shaft size, shoulder height, and turbine seal location.