Subaru develops diesel engine

BoneStockTS · 04-22-2005, 05:01 PM

http://www.kfzbetrieb.de/news/kb_beitrag_1806484.html

The article is in German, here's my translation:

"The Japanese automaker Subaru is working on a Diesel Boxer engine for automobiles. Insiders confirmed to the industry magazine "Automobil Industrie" that the engine will be introduced in Europe in 2007, probably in the Subaru Legacy.

Honda's 2.2 liter Diesel engine is said to have been an inspiration for this engine. At press time, the size, torque, and injector pressure have not been decided upon. The Japanese are currently testing versions with magnetic and piezoelectric valve control.

The engine being developed is a Common-Rail type Diesel engine of the newest generation, and it will pass Euro IV emissions norms even without a particle filter. The engine will be delivered with a particle filter however.

The major reasons for developing the Boxer Diesel were: Besides Porsche, Subaru is the last automaker to build boxer engines. In addition, the new Diesel engine is intended to fit into existing vehicle platforms. From a technical point of view, the running characteristics of these engines were a major factor. And "last but not least", the Boxer Diesel is a singularly unique offering. Naturally, Subaru hopes that this will enhance their image. "

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sir_wagon · 04-22-2005, 06:26 PM

The boxer configuration will help them keep vibrations levels down in the diesel engines.

Mike Wevrick · 04-22-2005, 10:45 PM

Mostly it will let them put diesels into existing vehicles without big fit issues. I'll bet we see these engines in the US around 2007, too, since that's when we get cleaner diesel fuel.

ringe · 04-23-2005, 06:13 PM

It also means direct injection in the future...huge potential there with turbo motors.

Chigliakus · 04-23-2005, 07:13 PM

Sounds great, if it's a turbo diesel.

grzydj · 04-24-2005, 08:00 PM

I'd love a Forester with a diesel in it.

rogerd · 04-24-2005, 09:18 PM

Interesting to see how much heavier than the gas engine it ends up being. Those high compression ratios need more bottom end heft.

BoneStockTS · 04-24-2005, 09:45 PM

I'd love a Turbo Diesel Subaru. I'm super curious to what the sound will be like too. Has anybody heard the BMW I-6 turbodiesels? They sound so incredibly sweet, believe it or not.

With a TD we'd finally get the high-mileage cars that we want

KC · 04-25-2005, 08:06 AM

I better start working on my propane injection kit for it.

skunkfifty · 04-25-2005, 10:05 AM

i say bring on the diesel-electric hybrids.

hhcchen · 04-25-2005, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skunkfifty

i say bring on the diesel-electric hybrids.

maybe that's what they are going to do...

isn't subaru working with toyota for some hybrid technology...?
then combine with this diesel idea,
hey, subaru will be ahead of everyone

rallysquirrel · 04-25-2005, 03:32 PM

Subaru has NO plans to sell the diesel in the US. That's from a couple of months ago. Diesel has such a bad reputation here, I'm betting they'll let someone else like Toyota or VW try and break through (the aforementioned have been working on a turbo diesel hybrid; can you imagine the torque and the mileage you'll get out of those)

REXLR8 · 04-25-2005, 03:53 PM

we will probly never see this engne as manufacturers hardly ever introduce there dielsel motors to the US. diesel engines are huge in europe, they just dont see a market here for diesel engines because we never buy them.......except OUR (U.S.) diesel trucks, which are badass

BoneStockTS · 04-25-2005, 04:28 PM

One big reason we don't see a lot of Euro diesel engines here yet is because of the quality of diesel fuel in the US.

VW has sold its Jetta TDi here for many years, and people like them. A manual tranny Jetta TDi can get like 45 mpg on the highway. Great for commuters.

When the cleaner diesel fuel is available in the US in 2007 we can probably expect to see more diesels. BMW offers the 5-series with a V8 turbodiesel, that car does 0-62 mph in 6.6 seconds.

grzydj · 04-25-2005, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rallysquirrel

Subaru has NO plans to sell the diesel in the US. That's from a couple of months ago. Diesel has such a bad reputation here, I'm betting they'll let someone else like Toyota or VW try and break through (the aforementioned have been working on a turbo diesel hybrid; can you imagine the torque and the mileage you'll get out of those)

I'm not so sure about that. With the lower sulfur diesel coming out in the next year or so, it'd be a great way for Subaru to lower their CAFE standards. They've already gone to lengths to reclassify their wagons as trucks.

Seriously, a turbo diesel Forester or Outback would be the absolute perfect vehicle for me.

I think diesels are going to come on really strong in the next few years. Ford is going to bank a lot of their future on it, as is GM.

rogerd · 04-25-2005, 09:06 PM

Remember in many European markets, diesel is much cheaper than gas (lower taxes). That, plus higher mpg changes behavior when you pay as much there for a litre of gas as we do for a gallon.

Mike Wevrick · 04-25-2005, 10:11 PM

I think we will start seeing a lot more diesels (including Subies) once we get the cleaner fuel. VW has no trouble selling them here; why would Subaru?

WRXedUSA · 04-25-2005, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerd

Remember in many European markets, diesel is much cheaper than gas (lower taxes). That, plus higher mpg changes behavior when you pay as much there for a litre of gas as we do for a gallon.

12345

One more thing you must consider. In Europe, where the BMW, VW and Audi diesels rule, they are mainly for city to city crusing at 80mph or more on the open freeways. The way the infrastructure is arranged, people dont drive diesels in stop and go traffic since things (for the most part) are more accesible by bus or bike.

DC S14 · 04-26-2005, 03:32 AM

intresting.....

Mike Wevrick · 04-26-2005, 09:01 AM

I'd like to have a small gas hybrid car for city driving and a big diesel wagon for highway cruising.

Jon [in CT] · 04-26-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick

I think we will start seeing a lot more diesels (including Subies) once we get the cleaner fuel. VW has no trouble selling them here; why would Subaru?

If you go to VW's US web site, you'll find that VW doesn't/can't sell diesel versions of its cars in California and states which have adopted California emissions standards. Same is true for Mercedes Benz. I doubt Subaru will find it profitable to develop diesel engines for the US when they are excluded from the California and Northeast markets due to regulations.

petergun · 04-26-2005, 11:01 AM

The single reason one cannot sell a diesel equipped car in California standard is that diesel sold in North America has to high a sulphur content and the technologies available to scrub particles would simply burn-out with this fuel.

Anything that exeeds Euro V emissions using low-sulphur or bio-diesel should be California emissions capable. Unless Cali purposfully moves the mark forward again.

You know what, bio-diesel would remove the sulphur from this equiation and make your car small like fries (_joke_)

rogerd · 04-26-2005, 09:13 PM

Fact: diesel engines are more efficient than gas engines. Efficiency in the internal combustion engine, all else being equal, depends an compression ratio, and diesels have much higher compression ratios than gas engines.

Fact: US consumers' view of diesel is driven by failures of domestic companies to get it right. Remember the GM diesel cars which basically did not work? My ex-neighbor had a diesel Olds which he had to have towed away for scrap at only a few years old. Expect him ever again to buy a diesel?

Go to Europe. You will not see a truck belching black smoke (aka unburned fuel) - they will be pulled over and ticketed. You will see a lot of very clean diesel cars being used as everyday transport, delivering high mileage and zero problems.

Fact: in the US diesel is often more expensive than gas. No excuse for this, as a gallon of crude produces more diesel than gas.

Conclusion? US consumers, in general, do not care about mpg. Even in the face of $2.50 going to $3.00 gas. Otherwise, why buy a Hummer - and boast about it - as daily transport?

hhcchen · 04-26-2005, 10:52 PM

it could be a chicken and egg problem...
maybe it is because not much selections of diesel cars around for consumers to chose...
so car manufacturers thought there is no consumer interest...
and therefore not many car company make much diesel cars...
and so on...

rogerd · 04-27-2005, 07:10 AM

Talk to a non enthusiast "average" driver about diesels - you hear: noisy, smelly, pollution, and no "pick up", as typical comments. Maybe MB and BMW can push things along - they really have great diesels in Europe which do not exhibit any of the above traits. BUT all the while diesel costs more than premium gas, I think it's a hard sell. And I'll bet the new "clean" diesel will cost even more.

04-22-2005, 05:01 PM	#1
BoneStockTS Scooby Newbie Member#: 80670 Join Date: Jan 2005	Subaru develops diesel engine http://www.kfzbetrieb.de/news/kb_beitrag_1806484.html The article is in German, here's my translation: "The Japanese automaker Subaru is working on a Diesel Boxer engine for automobiles. Insiders confirmed to the industry magazine "Automobil Industrie" that the engine will be introduced in Europe in 2007, probably in the Subaru Legacy. Honda's 2.2 liter Diesel engine is said to have been an inspiration for this engine. At press time, the size, torque, and injector pressure have not been decided upon. The Japanese are currently testing versions with magnetic and piezoelectric valve control. The engine being developed is a Common-Rail type Diesel engine of the newest generation, and it will pass Euro IV emissions norms even without a particle filter. The engine will be delivered with a particle filter however. The major reasons for developing the Boxer Diesel were: Besides Porsche, Subaru is the last automaker to build boxer engines. In addition, the new Diesel engine is intended to fit into existing vehicle platforms. From a technical point of view, the running characteristics of these engines were a major factor. And "last but not least", the Boxer Diesel is a singularly unique offering. Naturally, Subaru hopes that this will enhance their image. " * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

04-22-2005, 10:45 PM	#3
Mike Wevrick RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11 Scooby Guru Member#: 24654 Join Date: Sep 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: saraseager.com Vehicle: 1957 Taggart Comet atlasshruggedpart1.com	Mostly it will let them put diesels into existing vehicles without big fit issues. I'll bet we see these engines in the US around 2007, too, since that's when we get cleaner diesel fuel. Last edited by Mike Wevrick; 04-22-2005 at 10:51 PM.

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04-22-2005, 06:26 PM	#2
sir_wagon Scooby Specialist Member#: 71549 Join Date: Sep 2004 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Anywhere but on Facebook.	The boxer configuration will help them keep vibrations levels down in the diesel engines.

04-23-2005, 06:13 PM	#4
ringe Scooby Specialist Member#: 49998 Join Date: Dec 2003 Chapter/Region: RMIC Vehicle: 2017 WRX MT6 WRB	It also means direct injection in the future...huge potential there with turbo motors.

04-23-2005, 07:13 PM	#5
Chigliakus Scooby Newbie Member#: 77525 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: DFW, TX Vehicle: '02 GDA, '09 GR '93 FD	Sounds great, if it's a turbo diesel.

04-24-2005, 08:00 PM	#6
grzydj Scooby Specialist Member#: 84984 Join Date: Apr 2005 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Sioux Falls, South Dakota Vehicle: 2006 Impreza 2.5i 5D '04 Toyota Tacoma TRD	I'd love a Forester with a diesel in it.

04-24-2005, 09:18 PM	#7
rogerd Scooby Specialist Member#: 59934 Join Date: Apr 2004 Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Wagon Atlantic Blue	Interesting to see how much heavier than the gas engine it ends up being. Those high compression ratios need more bottom end heft.

04-24-2005, 09:45 PM	#8
BoneStockTS Scooby Newbie Member#: 80670 Join Date: Jan 2005	I'd love a Turbo Diesel Subaru. I'm super curious to what the sound will be like too. Has anybody heard the BMW I-6 turbodiesels? They sound so incredibly sweet, believe it or not. With a TD we'd finally get the high-mileage cars that we want

04-25-2005, 08:06 AM	#9
KC Scooby Guru Member#: 442 Join Date: Oct 1999 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: RI/SE Mass Vehicle: 25 Mazder CX70 00 S2k	I better start working on my propane injection kit for it.

04-25-2005, 10:05 AM	#10
skunkfifty Scooby Specialist Member#: 73102 Join Date: Oct 2004 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: madtowne, WI Vehicle: 1998 legacy outback white	i say bring on the diesel-electric hybrids.

04-25-2005, 03:32 PM	#12
rallysquirrel Scooby Specialist Member#: 7006 Join Date: May 2001 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: Clifton Park, NY Vehicle: 2007 SpecB	Subaru has NO plans to sell the diesel in the US. That's from a couple of months ago. Diesel has such a bad reputation here, I'm betting they'll let someone else like Toyota or VW try and break through (the aforementioned have been working on a turbo diesel hybrid; can you imagine the torque and the mileage you'll get out of those)

04-25-2005, 03:53 PM	#13
REXLR8 Scooby Newbie Member#: 70937 Join Date: Sep 2004 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: MASS Vehicle: 2006 VW GTi RED	we will probly never see this engne as manufacturers hardly ever introduce there dielsel motors to the US. diesel engines are huge in europe, they just dont see a market here for diesel engines because we never buy them.......except OUR (U.S.) diesel trucks, which are badass

04-25-2005, 04:28 PM	#14
BoneStockTS Scooby Newbie Member#: 80670 Join Date: Jan 2005	One big reason we don't see a lot of Euro diesel engines here yet is because of the quality of diesel fuel in the US. VW has sold its Jetta TDi here for many years, and people like them. A manual tranny Jetta TDi can get like 45 mpg on the highway. Great for commuters. When the cleaner diesel fuel is available in the US in 2007 we can probably expect to see more diesels. BMW offers the 5-series with a V8 turbodiesel, that car does 0-62 mph in 6.6 seconds.

04-25-2005, 09:06 PM	#16
rogerd Scooby Specialist Member#: 59934 Join Date: Apr 2004 Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Wagon Atlantic Blue	Remember in many European markets, diesel is much cheaper than gas (lower taxes). That, plus higher mpg changes behavior when you pay as much there for a litre of gas as we do for a gallon.

04-25-2005, 10:11 PM	#17
Mike Wevrick RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11 Scooby Guru Member#: 24654 Join Date: Sep 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: saraseager.com Vehicle: 1957 Taggart Comet atlasshruggedpart1.com	I think we will start seeing a lot more diesels (including Subies) once we get the cleaner fuel. VW has no trouble selling them here; why would Subaru?

04-26-2005, 03:32 AM	#19
DC S14 Scooby Newbie Member#: 85783 Join Date: Apr 2005	intresting.....

04-26-2005, 09:01 AM	#20
Mike Wevrick RIP 1/19/64 - 7/23/11 Scooby Guru Member#: 24654 Join Date: Sep 2002 Chapter/Region: NESIC Location: saraseager.com Vehicle: 1957 Taggart Comet atlasshruggedpart1.com	I'd like to have a small gas hybrid car for city driving and a big diesel wagon for highway cruising.

04-26-2005, 11:01 AM	#22
petergun Scooby Newbie Member#: 46425 Join Date: Oct 2003 Chapter/Region: E. Canada Location: Toronto, ON Canada Vehicle: 2017 4Runner White	The single reason one cannot sell a diesel equipped car in California standard is that diesel sold in North America has to high a sulphur content and the technologies available to scrub particles would simply burn-out with this fuel. Anything that exeeds Euro V emissions using low-sulphur or bio-diesel should be California emissions capable. Unless Cali purposfully moves the mark forward again. You know what, bio-diesel would remove the sulphur from this equiation and make your car small like fries (_joke_)

04-26-2005, 09:13 PM	#23
rogerd Scooby Specialist Member#: 59934 Join Date: Apr 2004 Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Wagon Atlantic Blue	Fact: diesel engines are more efficient than gas engines. Efficiency in the internal combustion engine, all else being equal, depends an compression ratio, and diesels have much higher compression ratios than gas engines. Fact: US consumers' view of diesel is driven by failures of domestic companies to get it right. Remember the GM diesel cars which basically did not work? My ex-neighbor had a diesel Olds which he had to have towed away for scrap at only a few years old. Expect him ever again to buy a diesel? Go to Europe. You will not see a truck belching black smoke (aka unburned fuel) - they will be pulled over and ticketed. You will see a lot of very clean diesel cars being used as everyday transport, delivering high mileage and zero problems. Fact: in the US diesel is often more expensive than gas. No excuse for this, as a gallon of crude produces more diesel than gas. Conclusion? US consumers, in general, do not care about mpg. Even in the face of $2.50 going to $3.00 gas. Otherwise, why buy a Hummer - and boast about it - as daily transport?

04-26-2005, 10:52 PM	#24
hhcchen Scooby Specialist Member#: 35619 Join Date: Apr 2003 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Bellevue Vehicle: 09 impreza 2.5i silver	it could be a chicken and egg problem... maybe it is because not much selections of diesel cars around for consumers to chose... so car manufacturers thought there is no consumer interest... and therefore not many car company make much diesel cars... and so on...

04-27-2005, 07:10 AM	#25
rogerd Scooby Specialist Member#: 59934 Join Date: Apr 2004 Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Wagon Atlantic Blue	Talk to a non enthusiast "average" driver about diesels - you hear: noisy, smelly, pollution, and no "pick up", as typical comments. Maybe MB and BMW can push things along - they really have great diesels in Europe which do not exhibit any of the above traits. BUT all the while diesel costs more than premium gas, I think it's a hard sell. And I'll bet the new "clean" diesel will cost even more.