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07-05-2005, 03:42 PM | #1 | |
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Brake fluid - true or false?
From trustmymechanic.com
http://www.trustmymechanic.com/brake_fluid_change.htm Quote:
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07-05-2005, 04:16 PM | #2 |
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As long as you bleed the brakes right, no air or dirt should EVER get into the lines.
My 0.02 cents, so far the 'old school' way of bleeding brakes has served me well. |
07-05-2005, 06:46 PM | #3 |
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If dirt gets into the resevoir while filling it up, then it's true.
I don't know how effective a slow gravity bleed is at getting out air bubbles (if you have air in the line), though. |
07-05-2005, 06:53 PM | #4 |
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The only problem I see with manual bleeding is that the piston overextends its normal length of travel, which may cause damage to the piston seals.
And the speedbleeders that a lot of people have has had issues with letting air get sucked in...sometimes that little spring mechanism doesn't spring shut quite as fast. Best option would be to purchase those vacuum..pump..machine...thingeys that they use in shops. It costs like $60, but they do a damn good job of cleaning out the system. |
07-05-2005, 11:04 PM | #5 |
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The Motive Power Bleeder works great...complete "one-man" job, super easy...just get the correct cap (it's a Ford cap, same "prong count" as what's on there now, I just can't remember at the moment). They go for about $60 shipped. I posted a review in the Parts Review section. The one-time cost will offset what a shop would charge for a single bleed job, and it's quite easy to use.
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07-06-2005, 12:12 AM | #6 |
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As eltrouble noted, don't give the pedal a full stroke when bleeding and you'll be fine. Nothing new about this info.
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07-06-2005, 12:14 PM | #7 | ||
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Quote:
It's either this or a hand vaccum pump to pull the fluid through - but I guess that will be a lot of work to bleed the brakes (anyone have one - comment?) although that does have other uses on the car. Also read the below. Not quite sure I buy the first part. Quote:
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07-06-2005, 02:39 PM | #8 |
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Cleaning out the reservoir is easy...you just suck up as much as you can with a turkey baster, and discard it. You can put a couple of inches of vacuum hose on the baster and get more out that way.
After you take as much of the fluid out of the reservoir as you can, then fill it back up with fresh fluid before attaching the power bleeder cap...or however you're going to bleed the system. Sucking the old fluid out of the resevoir is pretty standard procedure to my understanding, regardless of how you complete the bleed process! Not sure what he meant about contaminating fresh fluid...with the power bleeder, it's all going one direction, or not at all. The vacuum pump system should work just as well, but adds the complication of keeping the reservoir filled during the drain process (the power bleeder will probably hold two quarts), and handling the vacuum pump + fluid separator at each bleed valve, which can get annoying. I've done it that way, and it works, but there is a lot of stuff to keep track of, and the separator that I had didn't hold much fluid at all. With the power bleeder, you just slip on your drain hose, tuck it in your collection bottle (I use a quart soda bottle), crack the valve, and let as much fluid drain as you want....then move on to the next wheel. The Motive unit is really well built...it looks like a garden pump sprayer, but it's substantially thicker in construction. |
07-06-2005, 03:54 PM | #9 |
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The tried and true method has worked for me time and again. If you do it right, it should never suck up any dirt. You just can't fall asleep while you are doing it and let the piston return from a depressed position with a bleeder open. It is also a pain to get someone to help you operate the cylinder, it's greatest downfall.
I've never had great success with the vacum bleeder that attaches to a compressor. The process was never as efficient as the two man system and if the end of the hose isn't the right size for the bleeder you are kinda screwed. I just recently purchased a product called Visibleed from Gunsons, maker of the infamous Colortune, and it works great with just one person. It is one of the best tools I have ever bought, and it was only $15. Now brake jobs can be miserable for just me, without anyone else involved. |
07-06-2005, 03:59 PM | #10 | |
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Quote:
I've done it twice so far - once with the 2 man method (gave up - wife wasn't very helpful), secodn time just me + speed bleeders (which I suspect left air in the system). So far its the messiest most frustrating and unrewarding thing I've done on the car. I think I'll just buy the motive unit. Thanks. |
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07-06-2005, 04:31 PM | #11 |
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After using the Motive unit, I realized I was actually *enjoying* the process...no kidding! Just wished I had gotten hold of one, twenty years ago. Once you look at it, it appears home fabricating caps to fit other reservoirs (for other vehicles) should be a fairly simple process, too.
The Ford "three prong" is a perfect fit for the WRX brake reservoir. Edit: They DO have a "universal" cap, but like the old JC Whitney "universal", it sounds like a royal pain to work with... Last edited by WRXRgr; 07-06-2005 at 04:51 PM. |
07-06-2005, 04:37 PM | #12 |
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I guess the search for an effective yet cheap "one-man-bleeder" system goes on.
I still use the two-man manual way, but frankly I'm tired of having these people mash the brake pedal like a monkey. |
07-06-2005, 07:55 PM | #13 |
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I'm sure something could be fabbed from a pump pressurised garden spray thing (about $10) and some tubing, a valve and spare brake resevoir lid...
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07-06-2005, 08:43 PM | #14 |
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I agree...in fact, when I web researched the Motive, I ran across a page that showed a homebrew version. I don't have the link any more, but it's Googleable. I just decided to go with the built product, in this case. You do need to include a gauge in the mix tho, to keep you from *overpressurizing* the system. Also, components have to be tolerant of brake fluid ;-)
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07-06-2005, 10:45 PM | #15 |
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Yeah... I don't have the time.
And I don't really want to get brake fluid all over the place (again) experimenting with this.... |
07-07-2005, 04:21 AM | #16 |
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For my sins I've bled a lot of brakes in my time.
The turkey baster to empty the reservoir is a new one on me. A good one too, I will use that in future. How does the turkey taste afterwards? I normally use the traditional way of bleeding brakes. I get the pedal pusher to push quickly (1/2 sec) and release slowly (2 sec). If you look at a brake system, the master cylinder is higher than the wheels so you're trying to make the air go downhill in the pipes. This is not the way it wants to go so you have to push it down faster than it can rise back up, hence the quick push. The slow return is to mimimise the suck on the system. Hydraulic seals are designed to keep pressure in. They are not so good at keeping air out when the system is below atmospheric pressure. I've not come across the term gravity bleeding. If it means simply opening the bleed valves and letting the fluid run by gravity, I have a few concerns. As above, the fluid needs to travel fast enough to push air downhill. Gravity bleeding may not achieve this. Another benefit of brake bleeding is to remove any dirt in the system. I know it shouldn't be there, but no assembly is perfect. To do this also needs a certain flow velocity. Gravity bleeding again may not achieve this. Vacuum bleeding gives me the same concerns as above about sucking air into the system. I'm open to correction but my initial reaction is to avoid it. I have owned a pressure bleeder for many years and it has bled many systems that have not responded to conventional methods. Mine is a Gunsons Easybleed. It takes its pressure from a tyre valve so the chances of overpressurising are reduced. However, plastic reservoirs will not take much pressure. Gunsons recomend something like 20 psi max. This system does manage a high fluid flow rate without any pause time for the air to rise. It also maintains the system under positive pressure. The down side is that the seal on the reservoir cap has to be perfect or you loose fluid. This is why I only use it when the traditional method fails. Brake fluid eats paintwork so this is bad news. Modern paints are more resistant than on my classic cars but I still mop up any spills ASAP. The good news is that (non silicone) brake fluid loves water and washes off easily. I always have a hose or bucket of water around when I bleed brakes in case of a spillage. |
07-07-2005, 01:50 PM | #17 |
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I've used a MityVac to vacuum-bleed brakes. It pulled air in thru the threads of the bleeder screw. I improved that by putting a big gob of grease around the base of that screw. But I still had to finish up the 'old' way with someone pumping the pedal.
So I bought a Motive pressure-bleeder, but I haven't used it yet. I need to do our Accord, so I need to make an adapter. I kept a brake-fluid-reservoir cap from a bad master cylinder just for this... When you make an adapter out of an old cap, remember that somewhere there's a tiny air vent in that cap. Plug it up with epoxy or something like that. |
07-07-2005, 04:13 PM | #18 |
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07-07-2005, 04:21 PM | #19 | |
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Quote:
I'm not sure about that 'slowly releasing brake pedal after a few quick pushes' thing, I think that would let air into the system through the bleeder valves. I just do it the normal way where you do a few quick pushes, and hold the pressure while you open up the bleeder valve, as soon as the fluid is pushed out, close the bleeder valve and repeat the process over again. Gravity bleeding doesn't work too well, it simply takes too long and I can't imagine it being as effective as pressure bleeding or manual bleeding. Yeah, ALWAYS have some source of water and a couple of rags close at hand when working with brake fluid. It also helps to purchase a fender cover and use it while you're filling up the MC. |
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07-07-2005, 07:30 PM | #20 | |
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One tip on use, from the Motive instructions: With no fluid in pump unit, hook up cap to master cylinder. Pump up unit to ~15 PSI and leave it sit for a few minutes, to see if you have any leaks. If no leakdown occurs, unscrew pump from bottle slowly to relieve pressure, and add your brake fluid. Also, to clear the pump line of fluid when you're finished, rotate/arrange the bottle so the pickup tube tip is clear of remaining fluid. Go to the bleeder nearest the master cylinder (solely so you can keep an eye on it's level), crack it, and keep it open until fluid in the line is pushed into the master cylinder...you can even get the level down to the "Full" mark, this way. With the line cleared of fluid, there's virtually no mess when you un-cap the master cylinder. |
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07-07-2005, 09:19 PM | #21 |
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I'm going to give this a shot, will let you kow how it turns out.
$80 + shipping for the motive unit (with adapters for both my wrx and wife's honda) is just too steep for me. This looks real easy to build. $20 - pump container $5 - pressure gauge plus a hose fitting or two and some piping, and 1 cap per car for the resevoir. |
07-07-2005, 10:27 PM | #22 |
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Shoot, knowing the sprayer will hold up to brake fluid, go for it...I'd have gone that route if I'd seen that page. I was just a Lowes tonite, btw...they have a very good assortment of clear hose there.
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07-08-2005, 11:34 AM | #23 | |
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Quote:
To bleed brakes I do the following: Open bleed valve Assistant pushes pedal quickly Close bleed valve Assistant lets up pedal slowly Repeat until no more air comes out or until reservoir needs topping up. |
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07-08-2005, 12:39 PM | #24 |
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...regarding the original post, That article is misdirected. The issue I think he's referring to is in bleeding after pushing the pistons back into the caliper, pushing all that crap back up the lines... into both the master cylinder and the ABS system.
It was an article on ABS systems posted in www.endwrench.com |
07-08-2005, 04:31 PM | #25 | |
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Quote:
Well the way I was taught to do it, is to pump the brakes when the bleeder valve is closed, that way it builds up pressure in the lines. And when he holds the brake pedal down, that pressure is built up against the bleeder valve, in which case I open the valve, a bunch of fluid squirts out, and I close the bleeder valve to prevent air from going back in. Rinse and repeat. I guess it's two different ways of doing the same thing. |
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