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Old 09-21-2005, 08:30 PM   #1
Siper2
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Question Conservative estimate: i-speed reflash, headers... Gains?

Hi guys. Just read this review:

http://rs25.com/forums/showthread.ph...328#post621328

Which I found via:

http://www.i-speed.us/news/rs_reflash_3.shtml


Now. That says I think that it's about a 10hp. gain, I think. So, here's what I'm thinking...

I want to do a swap. Either that, or sell the car and buy a 2006 Saab 9-2X. But assuming I haven't the money next year (who knows?), I may not be able to. So I wonder what I could get out of this:

1. i-speed reflash
2. Equal-length headers (I hear TWE can make them in non-stainless, which would hopefully be quite a bit less than the ~$750 4-2-1 SS ones)
3. New muffler (i.e. Magnaflow)

I currently have a K&N panel filter, PDM Racing CAI and a WRX axleback with 2.25" resonator-less Stromung midpipe.

I'm thinking, with all of the above, maybe 20hp in gains? Reasonable?
Conservative? Excessive? All of the above I could have for probably $1200ish, self-installed. Give or take. Maybe pony up for a used Cobb/PRM intake, if it'd really help.

I need a reliable car though. How funky can a reflash be? Definitely going for a mild tune, insofar as N/A. Daily driver and all. Thanks!

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Old 09-22-2005, 03:48 AM   #2
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I think 20hp would be conservative. You figure about half of that 20 is just the ECU. Whats the CAI like 8 maybe full exhaust prolly at least 5 maybe up to 12. I would think you'd hit 20 extra ponies. It'd be very streetable. Hell, cams would be streetable and that'd be another 10hp at least. I think the reflash is pretty damn solid. I'd either get a lightweight pulley or a lightweight fly too. Big grins there.

cheers

garrett
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Old 09-22-2005, 08:45 AM   #3
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Well I nearly got the lightweight flywheel when I bought my Exedy Sport clutch, but I didn't want to lose the low-end torque. Which isn't to say I won't pick one up eventually.

I don't think the CAI is 8hp, that sounds pretty high especially for one that retains the OE airbox, like mine. But CAI plus a good muffler might equal 5-8hp, I'd think. Who knows, maybe that's low, but ....



Need more feedback!
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Old 09-22-2005, 10:10 AM   #4
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$1200 for 20hp?? You want to do a swap or buy a new car, so why blow all that money? I'd just wait it out and save your money for the real goal.
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Old 09-22-2005, 10:48 AM   #5
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give you an idea... cobb CAI and catback exhaust (stromung makes it for cobb) gives 12.7 whp according to their site. But the OE intake and exhuast won't yeild as high results as the cobb setup. Add to that equal length headers and a pulley, and they hit 19.2 whp gain. $1645 for all that.
Forget about the pulley, get a stromung cat-back instead of cobb (or just have a muffler shop fab one up for alot less money), get twe headers, cobb intake
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Old 09-22-2005, 04:04 PM   #6
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yea Ive got a brullen headerback (gives ~21hp), plus a PDM CAI (for ~5hp), and a lightweight pulley (for another ~5)...figure I'm sitting around 195hp at the crank. So technically, my setup and the reflash should put me around 203-305hp.

Not too bad.
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Old 09-22-2005, 05:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butter
So technically, my setup and the reflash should put me around 203-305hp.
haha thats a big range. imagine if auto makers started rating their engines like that....your car will come with a 2.0L 4 cylinder with power ranging from 100-200 hp....depending on how lucky you are. But technically, or rather theoretically, youre correct
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Old 09-22-2005, 05:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stig
haha thats a big range. imagine if auto makers started rating their engines like that....your car will come with a 2.0L 4 cylinder with power ranging from 100-200 hp....depending on how lucky you are. But technically, or rather theoretically, youre correct
lol...typos > me

I meant, obviously, 203-205
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Old 09-22-2005, 06:29 PM   #9
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I'd be surprised if you got more than 15 HP with that current setup. I think a big restriction would be the intake. From what I remember, Rallitek did a dyno comparison between a ganzflow (which utilizes the stock box)and a weapon R, whereas the secret weapon intake (3inch straight to TB) performed better due to increased airflow. I would say you would need a better intake similar to what I described before seeing any substantial gains, aside from what the ECU is providing.

Another big factor is your A/F ratio's. Most people seem to think slapping on parts will suddenly make their car stronger. It can yes, but usually its minimal to none (and in some cases worse) due to the fact that the stock ECU cant compensate as well for parts it wasnt originally tuned for. Case in point would be me getting an injen RD intake (the one that goes into the fender well). I noticed it was making some harsh noise when I rapped it out to 4.5+ at WOT. Sounded like gravel bouncing around in a tin can. Turns out it was knocking. Got a perfect power, had that biznatch tuned with the proper A/F ratio's, and am now putting out 153HP and 177ft lbs of torque to the wheels (mustang dyno). Oh yeah, it's tuned for 91. It's pretty quick (2001 RS).
For those who are curious, my power mods are:

TWE equal length coated headers (2nd or 3rd generation, I forget)
Injen RD intake
Random Tech Highflow Cat
WRX catback
Perfect Power Piggyback ECU

Perhaps the I-Speed reflash can adapt better, but it's too early to tell given the scarcity of the reviews on it so far.

Anyway, something to consider..
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Old 09-22-2005, 07:18 PM   #10
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No, that's good feedback. I definitely agree that a good tune means the difference between black and white, so I suppose a few extra buck$ for a tune, after parts install, would be worthy to save for.

I have no objections to getting rid of my CAI for something better. I'd probably like to keep the car tuned for 87 or maybe 89 octane, I guess... 91/92 would be nice but overkill, I'd say, for me.

lotusTT,
I agree with the sentiment, but that's where it stops. Remember that a swap would be $6K installed by most shops (current going rate), and that's for a pre-2006 WRX powerplant. Which I don't want -- no interest in the EJ20. (Not that I'd complain if someone dropped a high-dollar JDM EJ20 in my garage, mind you. )

So, $1200ish for 20-30chp brings me to let's say 195chp. Yes the WRX engine is 227chp, but is that worth another $4K to me? No, especially with the torque defecit.
And yes I could do the swap myself, with the help of many friends, but then there's organization time, effort, planning.... And what do I value my time at?

$1200 or so is small beans compared to a swap or, of course, a new car. (Which, while a wonderful thought at the 9-2X's 230hp, JDM brakes and that it's a warrantied-wagon, would still be $21K at *least*, so maybe $11-13/4K after I sell the RS and put it toward the sale. Plus monthly payments again.)

Point being, I'd be meeting myself in the middle at around 195-200chp, versus 227-245hp or so (assuming a 2.5" turboback exhaust upgrade, more money!!), and all for a little over a grand. So I guess that's my thought process.

...

Hell, guys, I've had 165hp since May of 2000 when I bought this car, which as it is, is already the most powerful car I've ever owned. 20-30chp would probably make me flip out. And from what someone said already, who has the headerback with the CAI and has those gains *without* the reflash, hey maybe I'm looking at perhaps 40hp. or so.

I'm not back-shelfing the swap/new car idea at all. I'm just trying to explore my more realistic options, I guess.

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Old 09-22-2005, 10:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPhive
I'd be surprised if you got more than 15 HP with that current setup. I think a big restriction would be the intake. From what I remember, Rallitek did a dyno comparison between a ganzflow (which utilizes the stock box)and a weapon R, whereas the secret weapon intake (3inch straight to TB) performed better due to increased airflow.
Where can I get more info about the 3" intake straight to the throttle body?
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Old 09-23-2005, 03:24 AM   #12
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Check out the N/A forums on the Rallitek site. I believe it's listed in there. They found that the A/F ratios were a lot different than when equipped with the Weapon R intake. So it makes sense given the data they provided.

Also think about if you get a swap you'll also invest another 2k-4k in mods. Yeah it'll be fast but for 7-9 thosand dollars it better be damn fast. You can get stock WRX power pretty easily. A few people that have done build ups are able to walk stock WRX's even lightly modded WRX's if I remember correctly. I think N/A is just more fun. I guess there is a novelty to it also but it's pretty cheap you get a reasonable amount of power so what the hell.

The most recent Subie Sport mag has a good quote something to the effect of...
"We've driven peaky high horse power WRX's but our 2.5RS just has power everywhere." Which in my opinion is the best reason to go N/A.

cheers

garrett
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Old 09-23-2005, 08:40 AM   #13
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Garrett,

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. An EJ20 would be fun, but I'm not a stomp-the-throttle-all-the-time kind of guy. Sure, I love that stuff, but I don't want to give up the other usabilities, though. I *might* put a lightweight Exedy flywheel in the car, but even that is doubtful. (My OE one only needed a very light sanding prior to putting in the new clutch.)

And as I mentioned, yeah the money factor is huge. Swap would be great fun, but including a $2K paint job I'd be "done" with the car for a total investment of say $3500. Whereas with a swap, I'd want to get pretty involved so it'd be upwards of $12,000 probably.

*shrug*

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Old 09-23-2005, 01:35 PM   #14
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The Exedy Lightweight fly is actually very driveable. I'd get the ACT one tho if i were to do it again. But that is a very fun upgrade.

Sometimes I feel really stupid for wanting to drop an STI block into my car and getting all 500HP on a japanese car that isn't very clean looking. I don't want to be "That Guy" that spends more on his car than on his girlfriend or doesn't take a vacation because I need a new turbo. So the N/A route is kind of good in that I limits my spending and provides me with, more than likely, far more power than I really need.

IMO

cheers

garrett
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Old 09-23-2005, 03:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Thomas
Where can I get more info about the 3" intake straight to the throttle body?
Well the intake Rallitek used was the Weapon R - Secret Weapon. The diameter of the intake was roughly 3 inches. Anyone similar intake would work as well, although some are better than others I'd think (Cobb, Injen). The stock intake system utilizes a 2.5 diameter intake, so theres no real increase in airflow. I do want to mention that with a stock RS, a ganzflow did help accelleration slightly on the top end. You just wont see significant gains without an intake that increases the airflow (more air + more fuel = more power). Even then, just adding it wont do much until you get it tuned. The A/F ratios need to be corrected before you can take advantage of it; That's been my experience anyway.

At that point, I think using the new 2005 plastic intake manifold, and bored out TB (that Zzyzx has been using) would add even more gains. I'm looking into this now, as I happen to live in the area of his business.
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Old 09-23-2005, 04:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coxmaster
The Exedy Lightweight fly is actually very driveable. I'd get the ACT one tho if i were to do it again. But that is a very fun upgrade.

Sometimes I feel really stupid for wanting to drop an STI block into my car and getting all 500HP on a japanese car that isn't very clean looking. I don't want to be "That Guy" that spends more on his car than on his girlfriend or doesn't take a vacation because I need a new turbo. So the N/A route is kind of good in that I limits my spending and provides me with, more than likely, far more power than I really need.

IMO

cheers

garrett
Good thoughts as usual.

Yes, car mods can be addicting for certain! Somewhat thankfully, I haven't had the funds for many mods at all in recent years, but it's improving lately. Got new winter and summer tires, new 17"s, bolted up the WRX exhaust... small steps, you see.

I definitely prefer to spend money on my wife, but she's a frugal girl so sometimes she lets me slide in a mod or three! And yes, the STi swap thing might be more than I'd be ready for. I'd need lots of classes first to justify the power, which would be a lot MORE money.... Though, that's money I really *do* want to spend. My wife too.

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Old 09-23-2005, 05:15 PM   #17
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And thats a good point. If you take driving classes you can gain a "virtual 40WHP" by knowing how to put that power to use.

cheers

garrett
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Old 09-23-2005, 08:16 PM   #18
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Yeah, definitely. I took the 1-day winter safety class at www.teamoneil.com with a bunch of NESICers in early 2001. That was amazing.

And three years later, when on the highway a 5-gallon gas canister flew out of the back of a pickup and slammed into my bumper on the highway at 60+mph in the dead of winter, I'm convinced that I subconsciously remembered what they taught me. Corrected myself in a horrendous fishtail. I've no idea how.

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Old 09-26-2005, 09:14 AM   #19
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Bump for more thoughts!
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Old 09-26-2005, 07:23 PM   #20
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"...+14 PEAK HP GAIN to the wheels and +13 ft-lbs PEAK TORQUE GAIN, with maximum gains of +19 HP at redline!! These gains were seen when comparing otherwise unmodified, stock cars. More gains are possible if your vehicle is modified with upgraded intake and exhaust systems."

If cobb claims their cams can actually do these kinda gains im curious to see how much they would make on my car combined with the reflash. My last dyno with just the intake (no exhaust) was 136.6whp and 147wtq if i remember correctly. I wonder what kinda gains I would have wit the cams and the reflash, i'd guess around 150-170whp if not more.

I think if you are a guy like coxmaster not wanting to spend more money on ur car than ur girl, and RS with these kinda mods would do you good. probably pushin out times like a stock WRX. It'd never pull like a turbo though thats for sure....
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Old 09-26-2005, 11:13 PM   #21
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I'm not feeling the Cobb stuff so much anymore (hang on let me put my flame retardant suit on). I think they're a good company and make good products but I think I might go another way. I read the most recent issue of SubieSport and they added the Cobb Spicy cams and got 5 more PEAK HP. Thats kind of... well not 14HP. And that was with the engine retuned. The power at redline was much better Tho. I don't remember the numbers exactly. So... yeah... not as much as some people thought. I'm sure they're really good but need to be coupled with Ported and Polished heads to be fully realized.

I called up Tom at TWE today and talked to him about ZZYZX's ride and he couldn't get into all the details but I was seriously impressed with what I did hear. Very professional. If I were doing valvetrain work and had a budget I'd prolly go with the TWE spicy cams and Stage II port and polish. I personally would like to get their spicy cams and the stage III port and polish. And from the sound of it the 2005 RS intake manifold is a big plus if you can move all that air.

Caplin, I dunno about not pulling like a WRX. Just different. It would be smoother than a turbo. But I think just as hard as a WRX with a reflash and exhaust. Well and no lag.

cheers

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Old 09-27-2005, 01:07 AM   #22
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^^ yea thats what i meant. Pull will probably be different, but times will be close. I always thought cobb was kinda bsin that statement no offense to people with their products... but when it comes to internal parts for an RS TWE usually seems to have the better products... Specially cams.
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Old 09-27-2005, 02:12 AM   #23
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It's not like Cobb doesn't make good products, thats not what I'm saying at all. Just different. I imagine in my head that if you built up a completely Cobb tweaked EJ25 engine and A completely TWE tweaked EJ25 they would both be very very powerful but would feel very different. The power would definately rule in either.

My personal preference would be to go with TWE. They now have a much proven track record. And thats just a safe bet for me.

cheers

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Old 09-27-2005, 08:48 AM   #24
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I like TWE a lot. Ryan's always replying to Emails that I send, with any queries. Yes they're very professional. Plus, there was a huge thread a while back about the differences between the headers, Cobb and TWE. Once I saw some photos, it looked to me like TWE's were still better quality.

I don't want to really compare n/a RS mods to "a WRX," largely because, except the 2006s, they're all 2.0 liters. That's not something I'm interested in, so for me it's apples and oranges, entirely.

But the point is still valid, sure.
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Old 09-27-2005, 11:42 AM   #25
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I agree with you there cox.
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