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Old 10-18-2005, 11:45 AM   #1
Element Tuning
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Default Element GT65 vs. Element GT65+Magnus Intake Manifold

So what happens when you take two almost identical setups but swap out the intake manifold?

Here are the contenders:

04 STI Blue Dyno Plot
Element built 2.5 STI with Pauter Rods and CP Pistons (Heads OEM STI with AVCS)
Element prototype GT65 Turbo Kit with matched Header
Element Hydra EMS
APS 3.5Ē Cat back exhaust
APS FMIC core
Magnus Intake Manifold
Ported TGV
PE850cc
Tial BOV
TurboSmart E-Boost
Exedy Twin Plate Clutch kit
VPC16

Element Time Attack WRX Green Dyno Plot
Element built 2.5 STI with CP Pistons only (Heads OEM STI with AVCS)
Element prototype GT65 Turbo Kit with matched Header
Element Hydra EMS
Element prototype 3Ē Cat back exhaust
Hyperflow FMIC core
Ported TGV
Perrin Modified 816cc
TurboSmart Megasonic BOV
TurboSmart E-Boost
ACT 6 puck OEM WRX flywheel
VPC16

Both cars tuned by yours truly with the same verve at the same boost pressure:



As you can see the Magnus intake is loosing some HP in the lower rpm area in trade for a solid gain in the midrange. From about 2200 rpm thereís a solid loss of about 25 whp up to 4500 rpm which is then traded for a 10-40 whp gain from 4500 rpm to 5800 rpm. From 5900 rpm to 6600 rpm you could call it a wash but past 6800 rpm you can see a loss but the 04 STIs spark plugs were on there last legs (20k + miles) and I was getting inconsistent misfires.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Last edited by Element Tuning; 10-18-2005 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:21 PM   #2
happasaiyan
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worth it? doesnt look like it to me...thanks for the info, though!
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:23 PM   #3
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By intake I assume you mean intake manifold. Am I right?
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:28 PM   #4
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interesting..
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:32 PM   #5
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Was this on the same trannie, or was it 5sp vs. 6sp?
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Old 10-18-2005, 01:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon
Was this on the same trannie, or was it 5sp vs. 6sp?
Dynoed 3rd in a PPG Helical Dogbox for the WRX and 4th on the STI. Shouldn't be a factor.

Magnus intake manifold is correct.

Worth it? That obviously depends on where the user prefers their power gain. 40 whp in midrange is huge!

So often in marketing you never see where the losses are or trade offs. These are the facts so it's up to the customer to determine the products worth.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 10-18-2005, 01:13 PM   #7
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What's amazing to me is that 40 whp looks like hairline difference in those plots because the scale is so large. It's like sayling look that building is 111 stories and the other is 110. Excellent work as usual.

Does the magnus come with an option for a larger throttle body? With all that air flow you might pick up something there and new cams.
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Old 10-18-2005, 01:35 PM   #8
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Maybe it's just me but when you have a super laggy turbo like this one, I'd rather have that extra 40 lbft of torque at the lower RPMs. Peak power is a wash and the Magnus seems to be tuned for midrange only and suffers everywhere else.
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Old 10-18-2005, 01:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
What's amazing to me is that 40 whp looks like hairline difference in those plots because the scale is so large.
indeed!

that's what a 0-600whp range will get you..
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Old 10-18-2005, 01:56 PM   #10
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Cars dynoed the same day?
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Old 10-18-2005, 03:31 PM   #11
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When you're dealing with a 600 hp scale, large gains do look fairly insignificant.

As for the lag on the lower end most users with turbochargers this large would not be caught dead flooring it at 2K rpm for fear of getting passed by a Toyota Prius

Dynoed two separate days....months With SAE Correction this shouldn't matter. For the record my car dynoed 553 whp uncorrected and this car dynoed 525 hp uncorrected.

Phil
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Old 10-18-2005, 03:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
What's amazing to me is that 40 whp looks like hairline difference in those plots because the scale is so large. It's like sayling look that building is 111 stories and the other is 110. Excellent work as usual.

Does the magnus come with an option for a larger throttle body? With all that air flow you might pick up something there and new cams.
I'm not sure what the options are for larger throttle bodies but the STI TB is very large as it is.

I've heard good things about the DPR AVCS cams. Apparently on a Hydra car I tuned with just the addtion of cams the car picked up 30 whp on the top end without tuning.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 10-18-2005, 03:43 PM   #13
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Please post if you can.
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Old 10-18-2005, 03:44 PM   #14
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well, at least with the 6-speed, you shouldnt have too much of a problem keeping the engine in the 5.5-7.5k range whether road racing or the strip....and in that rpm range, the non-magnus equipped car makes more power in that area.

midrange is nice...but around the street, the magnus is worse, and in the proper rev range, the magnus is worse...doesnt make much sense to me. ah well.
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Old 10-18-2005, 04:06 PM   #15
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Isn't that new intake come to live in 800hp+
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Old 10-18-2005, 05:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happasaiyan
well, at least with the 6-speed, you shouldnt have too much of a problem keeping the engine in the 5.5-7.5k range whether road racing or the strip....and in that rpm range, the non-magnus equipped car makes more power in that area.

midrange is nice...but around the street, the magnus is worse, and in the proper rev range, the magnus is worse...doesnt make much sense to me. ah well.
I think on these two cars this would be a decent intake manifold for road racing or even back country roads as you often find yourself around 4000-4500 rpm exiting many turns and then not exceeding 6K rpm. This manifold may allow you to short shift and have that extra burst of power in the 4500-6000 rpm range. Exiting turns at 5500 rpm is beyond my talent in 500+whp car

This reminds me of when I used to race motorcycles competitively. So many would be caught up in how much top end power brand X pipe made but their bikes became very difficult to ride. I always sought after pipes that gave me better midrange power without much sacrifice in rev out. This gave my bike tractable power to pass on the inside line, yet still be able to clear huge jumps, and make the pass stick into the next turn. No one cares about the loss of low end power as you donít need it going from the starting gate to your pickup truck. The same thing applies to this manifold, you donít need huge amounts of power to pick up your dry cleaning and if youíre trying to enjoy the power you have, then youíre a ďtoolĒ for driving outside of the powerband. I know that sounds harsh but 65 lbs compressors and built engines arenít optimized for tooling around at 3000 rpm, their sweet spot is 4500 rpm and up. Itís most certainly a give and take relationship.

The lack of top-end power increases (if you consider 525whp at 7k rpm a lack of power. LOL!) may be attributed to the .82 exhaust housing and not necessarily the intake manifold. This kit was designed to give the largest possible powerband while still maintaining great spoolup vs. absolute highest peak power. I think it would be interesting to see someone run this manifold on a car equipped with a 1.06 or perhaps with just a larger exhaust wheel. The intake manifold looks like it could be held back but I don't believe it's the heads yet as I've trapped with a larger turbocharger in the 132 range where this particular setup trapped at 129 mph.

Thanks,
Phil
http://www.elementtuning.com
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Old 10-18-2005, 05:14 PM   #17
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Could it be that the lack of top end is due to small cams.

I am certain that if you had some AVCS cams there or 272 cams, you would definately see the intake coming alive.
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Old 10-18-2005, 05:28 PM   #18
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Well, I guess the question is will Phil be getting a Magnus intake manifold for the Time Attack WRX??

offset
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Old 10-18-2005, 06:02 PM   #19
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Phil,

Thank you for posting the information . It's always nice to see comparable data

Chris
I-Speed USA
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Old 10-18-2005, 06:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offset
Well, I guess the question is will Phil be getting a Magnus intake manifold for the Time Attack WRX??

offset
I was supposed to have one months ago but it's too close to Time Attack for any changes now. We will be running the Element GT65 turbo kit however and not the Element GT75 kit I've been testing. It's just too much of a monster from 5K rpm up but not enough between 4000 and 5000 rpm for track use. If I had the cams and a modified crank then it would work spinning to 8K rpm.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 10-18-2005, 11:39 PM   #21
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Hola Phil,

Como estas? It's Miguel! Are you coming down for the Evo vs Wrx Dec. 3 event here in Puerto Rico? You know that you are welcome back and we (Tomas, Julio, Edward y Aldo) will sing (Feliz cumplea~no) I have a few new toys for my car set up, Pistons 8.5.1, Pauter Rods, DPR STI cams (AVCS) Stage II, DPR Over Size Valve, DPR Rally Phase II Headwork, DPR Port Intake Manifold & Match Throttle Body and more extra all of this thanks to Dan @ DPR Racing.

Looking forward to see you.

Last edited by diplo12; 10-20-2005 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 10-19-2005, 01:34 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSXR
Maybe it's just me but when you have a super laggy turbo like this one, I'd rather have that extra 40 lbft of torque at the lower RPMs. Peak power is a wash and the Magnus seems to be tuned for midrange only and suffers everywhere else.
not when you are drag car and you should never be out of boost and/or in low rpm's...

didn't read all the thread and I'm sure it has come up...but I think some cams are in line if they aren't already in...but get some to match your manifolds/tune...some thermo involved
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Old 10-19-2005, 09:10 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diplo12
Hola Phil,

Como estas? It's Miguel! Are you coming down for the Evo vs Wrx Nov3 event here in Puerto Rico? You know that you are welcome back and we (Tomas, Julio, Edward y Aldo) will sing (Feliz cumplea~no) I have a few new toys for my car set up, Pistons 8.5.1, Pauter Rods, DPR STI cams (AVCS) Stage II, DPR Over Size Valve, DPR Rally Phase II Headwork, DPR Port Intake Manifold & Match Throttle Body and more extra all of this thanks to Dan @ DPR Racing.

Looking forward to see you.
Hi, Miguel.

I'm looking forward to seeing your car in action again. Those modifications should net impressive results. Unfortunately I will not be in Peurto Rico the first week of November as we'll be at SEMA and then Time Attack 3.

Back on topic about matching the manifolds; the manifold and TGVs are matched and massaged as good as they can be with porting tools on our car. The results of this where impressive.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 10-19-2005, 11:17 PM   #24
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Nice numbers Phil should be a blast at the time attack.
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Old 10-20-2005, 09:08 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning
No one cares about the loss of low end power as you donít need it going from the starting gate to your pickup truck. The same thing applies to this manifold, you donít need huge amounts of power to pick up your dry cleaning and if youíre trying to enjoy the power you have, then youíre a ďtoolĒ for driving outside of the powerband. I know that sounds harsh but 65 lbs compressors and built engines arenít optimized for tooling around at 3000 rpm, their sweet spot is 4500 rpm and up. Itís most certainly a give and take relationship.

But Phiiiill....my forged pistons rattle at idle.

Thanks. Someone needed to say that. If you want an engine that produces almost 300hp/liter, you're going to have to give up something.

I can't tell you how many times I've built a nasty 434ci small block for someone, then buy it back 4 months later...."but I had to adjust the valves....." Everyone wants the "biggest, baddest". On pump gas.

S.
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