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Old 01-25-2006, 08:48 PM   #1
DoomSubie_FL
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Default OVERHEATING since September of 05' (5 months ago). Dear Subie Gods, please help!

OK....here's the low down. Until September of 05' (5 MONTHS AGO!) my 98' 2.5rs (which i bought in 02') had NEVER even thought about overheating. In fact, even under the most extreme operating conditions the thermo gauge didn't even budge. I could idle it for an hour..and nothing. Now, in Sept. 05' (5 months ago), I had my car serviced for the 100k-ish tune-up and a new clutch and some other misc. things. I took my car to Lee Import City of Ft Walton Beach, FL, to have this service done. Well, they mysteriously claimed that the radiator seemed to "not flow well" and asked if i'd like it sent to their local whoever to be flow tested and see if it was a "removable clog". So, i agreed (mistake #1). After testing, the dealership claimed that it was virtually NOT flowing, i repeat: NOT FLOWING, and needed to be replaced. The thermostat and radiator were replaced. Please keep in mind.. up until this point, i had NEVER HAD ANY overheating whatsoever..not even a mild symptom. EVER, and i have driven my car hard at times, but still been respectful of it (god bless it). OK. After replacement of such parts and completion of the other services i requested, i took the car back home. Well, everything was great for a few days- two i believe, to be exact. Having a new clutch, i did not take the engine over 3kRPMs. At the end of ~2 days normal driving distances (100-ish miles), it overheated! As one would imagine.. i was FURIOUS. (but not fast :/ ) Now i thought that could have just been a fluke..so i let it cool off and refilled the fluids that were lost. Over the course of a couple more days, i could drive it various distances and it would overheat sporatically. So finally, i contacted the BS dealership and took it back to them. They claimed that the "new presure for a FLOWING radiator caused the hoses to burst (which they didn't even replace or mention in the first place! sigh.)". So, they replaced them.. great..voila..problem solved! NOT. Got it back a second time.. same drill. Same exact problem. By the way.. i did forget to mention one thing- every time it overheated, it would cool off very very quickly once i pulled over and killed the engine. If that matters. And when i say overheat.. i mean it went to the TOP OF the temp gauge and almost passed the last mark. Kinda like when you fill up a gas tank and it goes juuuuust passed the full mark. So.. it was super hot..yet it cooled off to regular opperating temps in a matter of a couple minutes. (I thought that was odd?). So now.. i have had it serviced twice by them...and supposedly they have "fixed" the same overheating problem TWICE! Next, i talked to the manager and said: this is ****, yadda yadda yadda , and i gave him a logical equation: IT didn't overheat on me with a "BAD radiator"..now it has a new radiator which you installed , and now it overheats. The only LOGICAL solution is that YOU screwed something up. So i told him that by that argument, i wanted the dealership to cover any repairs to have the overheating fixed from this point on. He said they'd look into it, but no absolute guarantee. Next, they claimed to have gone over the ENTIRE COOLING SYSTEM..everything. And, as they said, they even contacted Subaru to ask what would be the next procedure and to ask for any advice. So supposedly they did everything subaru suggested..and still didn't find anything. This was done free of charge. The manager then contacted me and gave me two choices: A-i could have it towed to my house for free, B-they would open the head and check the headgasket (which they claimed was the next thing to check..even though no smyptoms were present) and if the gasket was bad, they would replace it and i would have to pay a discounted price..but if that WAS NOT the problem, then checking it was free. At this point, i no longer trusted them and i had my car towed home. So, i took it to my regular mechanic (should have gone there in the FIRST place) to have him check things out and see what he could find. Well, after his testings and driving it 25 miles (25..remember that), he was 90% sure it was the waterpump. That was replaced, and he replaced the thermostat again. He then drove it 24 miles (ONE LESS THAN what it overheated at the first time lol) w/o overheating. Of course, i wasn't going to trust the car being tested for LESS miles than it previously overheated at. So i drove i took it out the first night back with my fingers crossed. I first let it idle for ~20mins to let the components get good and warm (drives better..as ya'll probably know ). After the idle, i drove it approx. 3miles to a gas station and left it running while i cleaned the windshields. When i got back in the car, i noticed it was slightly warm..above 1/2 way..which is always a bad sign :/ So.. i drove caustiously and it went down as soon as it got air flow on it. At that point, i thought well this is bs, ..i've got to test it as if i were driving it normally because i know at some point i'll take it to ~4.5k rpms etc...just to have some fun.. you know .. and hear the roar ;x So.. after winding out into 5th gear, going through 3 and 4 up to ~4.5k rpms (by this time mind you, the clutch is fully broken in), it heats up ;/ So i slow down and find a place to pull over. Ever since i left the gas station, i've only gone ~3 miles, and it went from normal temp to 2/3 while at idle, then down to normal as soon as i was moving, then back up to ABSOLUTE TOP temp. when winding out to test it. Also keep in mind that BEFORE i had it "Serviced" at the dealership and had this new radiator installed.. i could wind every gear out to redline , repeatedly, w/o the temp rising at all. So.. here i am now, thousands of dollars less-richer (heh) and without any ideas for the solution. I have only invested so much money because this is my baby... you know how it goes. Don't want to give it up. And of course, after spending so much, one cannot "cut his/her losses".

So there you have it. Now i ask you, in fact i BEG you, please, ANY ideas? Anything at all? Ever heard of something similar etc.? Any of your friends might know something? If you have ANYTHING to add (besides rude/sarcastic comments), then please post away- no matter how little! Thanks a lot if you read all of this, heh. Assuming it's not against forum rules.. im going to copy this post to the "Maintenance/Service" forum so perhaps other ppl will see it that may know of something. -plz advise if this is not allowed? Thanks so much!
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Old 01-25-2006, 08:52 PM   #2
DoomSubie_FL
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Forgot to mention.. you can email me at: hollamordred@yahoo or AIM me at: mstapac96 . Dont hesitate if i missed something .. a detail or whatnot.. or you need more info. Thanks!
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:57 PM   #3
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as asked in the other forum.. YES, it has been visually verified that it overheats. And no, it was not specifically mentioned to me that the sensor(s) were checked, i'll mention that tomarrow! Thanks a lot. ----AND KEEP THE INFO COMIN! ;x
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Old 01-25-2006, 10:43 PM   #4
Tim Sanderson
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One thing I may have missed: did you happen to check the coolant reservoir any of the times it overheated? If so what did you see?

Unfortunately It seems that you need new head gaskets. I've seen many threads about the 98 and under dohc head gasket failure. Almost all of these threads share common traits with your story.

1. car overheats after "XX" miles
2. mysterious loss of coolant with no puddles
3. after spending hundreds on all new parts it still overheats


I'm going to say headgaskets.

Sorry.
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Old 01-25-2006, 11:17 PM   #5
Patrick Olsen
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You wrote quite book there, and I haven't even read it. Head gaskets. End of story.

Pat Olsen
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:37 AM   #6
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I did this write-up on RS25.com. http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40373 You can read through it if you want to, but at the very bottom, I have about 4 tools listed that will determine if you have a head gasket failure. They are pretty common tools so any shop should have them.

Unlike what the dealership told you, you don't have to take the heads off to determine if you have a head gasket failure. That's what tools are for.

It sounds like a head gasket problem to me. And it would have nothing to do with the new radiator. 98 DOHC RS's are known to have head gasket issues. There are 2 guys on RS25 right now that have the same issues as you. And both of them are 98's. It's a common problem.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:46 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen
You wrote quite book there, and I haven't even read it. Head gaskets. End of story.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan


I read the first few lines.... saw something about a clogged radiator (total BS) and decided to scroll down and make a post almost identical to yours...

I don't need to read anything else... head gaskets... have a shop take a look at the bubbles that are, no doubt, forming in the coolant overflow... it is an easy test and I bet you find that your HG are gone... it is a pretty normal thing for a suby with your kind of miles... mine went the first time at 95K...
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Old 01-26-2006, 04:12 AM   #8
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collants res we where the collant was lost. it mysteriously was told to overflow..and blew from the overflow all over the engine. hmm alright, thanks guys. it sounds like the majority vote is HG. thanks ;x <3
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Old 01-26-2006, 11:00 AM   #9
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Didn't read it all either. Didn't need to. HG...

Now for how long you have run it, you want to be really careful in checking your heads. There is a good chance they have warped beyond millable spec...
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Old 01-26-2006, 11:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson
Didn't read it all either. Didn't need to. HG...

Now for how long you have run it, you want to be really careful in checking your heads. There is a good chance they have warped beyond millable spec...
Agreed. Driving the car with a blown HG since September... Honestly, I don't care what problems you had with that dealership, waiting 5 months before you get anything done to it is rediculous! If you would have stayed calm throughout the entire ordeal, you could have had the head gaskets replaced for a fraction of the normal cost. It probably would have paid for the radiator plus some. Never put off necessary maintenance on your car. Especially if it's overheating.

After reading your entire huge post, I really don't feel sorry for you.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:30 PM   #11
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My situation was similar in many ways, so I'll add it to the mix.

The previous owner of my car had no problems with the car until a dealer decided that putting the stop-leak additive in the cooling system was a good idea. Almost immediately, the car was overheating, and it was found that the head gaskets had failed. After that service, the problem faded, but only temporarily. A return to the dealer and closer inspection found that the radiator was full of a sand-like substance. Radiator replaced.

I bought the car in late 04, and on the way home from picking it up, it began to overheat well into the trip. As you mentioned, after letting it sit for a while, the temperature would drop. The problem didn't crop up again for 4 months, but became progressively worse. I took it to a local dealer and they diagnosed it as a failed headgasket. They were puzzled, as I had records of this procedure being done once. They'd never seen a headgasket failure twice on a Phase II engine, for whatever that's worth. The work was done in a week or so, and I drove back home...mostly.

The gauge didn't flinch till I left the freeway and got onto a slower highway, where the speed dropped and the needle rose. I got it all the way back home, called the dealer, then got back in the car and returned it. Headgaskets again? Apparently, as procedure dictated, they immediately refilled the car with coolant after the HG replacement, including more stop-leak. More inspection found that, indeed, the radiator had clogged...AGAIN. They kept the car another week and could get it to overheat after short freeway drives, but didn't want to invest more time and money into it, so they chalked it up to a cracked head.. I contacted a local mechanic who has done work on my car. He sourced a used engine and we prepped for a swap.

Unfortunately this engine had apparently been sitting for at least a year and a half...without an exhaust manifold on it or any protection for the engine internals. Rust caused such a problem internally that the crankshaft couldn't rotate 180 degrees. Crap. At this point I asked him to just take the heads off and see what could be done, because we suspected a cracked head. No cracks were found, so the heads were sent to be milled. This is something that the dealer did not do, and I'm not even sure that they checked the heads. They were reinstalled with new gaskets, the radiator and engine were cleansed of the remnants of coolant installed by the dealer, and I was sent on my way. (I also had a set of Cobb Street Cams, Exedy flywheel, Cobb Power Pulley and ACT clutch installed while the engine was out of the car).

10 months later and the car is fine. The overheating had been caused by the stop-leak. The headgaskets failed because the heads warped because the radiator was clogged.

Lame, but true.
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Old 01-26-2006, 04:06 PM   #12
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"Agreed. Driving the car with a blown HG since September... Honestly, I don't care what problems you had with that dealership, waiting 5 months before you get anything done to it is rediculous! If you would have stayed calm throughout the entire ordeal, you could have had the head gaskets replaced for a fraction of the normal cost. It probably would have paid for the radiator plus some. Never put off necessary maintenance on your car. Especially if it's overheating.

After reading your entire huge post, I really don't feel sorry for you."



BEFORE YOU DRAW AN INACCURATE CONCLUSION ABOUT ME...how about you read more carefully? I HAVE NOT BEEN DRIVING the car since september.. it has been in a shop or at a dealer SINCE SEPTEMBER, with the exception of test driving it to get it to overheat for troubleshooting, and with the exception of each time i got it BACK from the dealer up until the point it began overheating


No mechanic even thought it was possibly the HG until the 3rd time i took it to the Subaru dealership...as i stated. It makes no noise, and i thought that was a tell-tale sign of a blown HG. So i didn't think it was either. Especially since i'd not had a problem with overheating before i had the car serviced. I thought it would be unusual to blow the HG while IT WAS BEING SERVICED at the dealership. Anyway...hope that clears things up for you buddy? I'm not looking for your "sorrow statement"..i'm only looking for advice. And on top of that, i said already that i was not looking for sarcasm. So to the malicious-posting fool, feel free to not post again in this thread- or any of my threads for that matter. It's a shame you have nothing better to do, wow.

To those of you with helpful info, i APPRECIATE IT GREATLY!


EDIT: Update..the mechanic who installed the 2nd new thermostat and the waterpump DID in fact perform the HG test involving the dye.
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:49 PM   #13
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Been there done that.

Not HG, cracked block. Type I DOC 2.5L have a reputation of this

Car only overheats after ~ 40 miles or 45 minutes, right? Your cracked cylinder is slowly pumping air into the cooling system, the air migrates down to the water pump, pump cavatates and dosen't provide sufficent circulation to cool engine, coolant temp pings temp gage.

Air speed and radiator by-pass are the only features that offer any cooling value to the coolant. The next thing that will happen, or perhaps has already has, is a blown HG.

Don't accept the symptoms as just blown HG(s)!!!

Have a mechanic do 48 hour leakdown test with the goal of finding a cracked block. I've seen many example of this and been effected directly my self. I've had two freinds tell me "you told me so" after they spent thousands.

DO NOT spend money on HG(s) replacement until you have 120% ruled out out a cracked block.

Good luck!!
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Old 01-26-2006, 08:59 PM   #14
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hmmm interesting info. thank you very much. Oh and you know the best part? Oh .. and now i've got people saying i stay to high up in the RPMs.. HAHAHAHAHAHAH, good one! Ahh anyway. Sounds like no matter what it is, it's going to be even more COSTLY. What to do what to do. I think what i really need is to come accross a parked armored car w/o any guards and with doors open! lol.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:05 PM   #15
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look for crack at #4 cyl this is in a tech bult
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:07 PM   #16
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a low mileage used 2.5 can be bought for 2 grand like the car ?
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:45 PM   #17
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New Test: Ok well i have the car back in my possesstion because certain people were convinced it was my "driving style" that was causing it to overheat-because when the mechanic took it for a test drive yesterday to verify that it was overheating AGAIN like i said, he drove ~30miles w/o any problem. So, until it would be looked at again, i had to get it to overheat w/o going above 2700rpms, JUUUUUUST to make my point crystal clear that i know what im talking about as far as my driving style having no relation to the overheating.

The Test:
Well i needed to go rent a movie..and i took the subie out instead of the volvo since the store is only ~6m away. I made it there no problem, no temp fluxuation showing. On the way back, at ~3.7m (9.7 total for the drive, with engine stoped at store for 7 minutes), the temp shot up to 2/3 max, and then to 4/5. I immediately shifted to neutral and cut the engine off, then ignition back on for lights so i could coast. The second it cut off and back on to see gauge reading (engine off..ignition on for power), the temp dropped to 2/3 from 4/5, and then back to normal. After ~15 seconds, it started to rise again to full. After i saw it was going to pass 2/3, i cut it off again to save any damage and pulled over to let it cool. Ignition back on to view gauge.. dropped down to just above normal temp and i started driving again. It begin to rise slowly, stabilized at 2/3 temp for a couple seconds, then IMMEDIATELY as i was about to pull over, dropped to absolute normal opperating temperature..about 1/3 on my gauge. I drove it the rest of the 1.3 m home with no fluxuation at all.

I know that is a wordy description..but that should help diagnose it somewhat? I mean.. if it fluxates that fast, then i figure it can rule certain things out. Any input? I wish i knew more about all the components relation to one another, but im NOT a tech at all, and won't BS as if i think i know about this stuff. Ideas/input as to which problem mentioned most corresspondes to this behavior?
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomSubie_FL



BEFORE YOU DRAW AN INACCURATE CONCLUSION ABOUT ME...how about you read more carefully? I HAVE NOT BEEN DRIVING the car since september.. it has been in a shop or at a dealer SINCE SEPTEMBER, with the exception of test driving it to get it to overheat for troubleshooting, and with the exception of each time i got it BACK from the dealer up until the point it began overheating


No mechanic even thought it was possibly the HG until the 3rd time i took it to the Subaru dealership...as i stated. It makes no noise, and i thought that was a tell-tale sign of a blown HG. So i didn't think it was either. Especially since i'd not had a problem with overheating before i had the car serviced. I thought it would be unusual to blow the HG while IT WAS BEING SERVICED at the dealership. Anyway...hope that clears things up for you buddy? I'm not looking for your "sorrow statement"..i'm only looking for advice. And on top of that, i said already that i was not looking for sarcasm. So to the malicious-posting fool, feel free to not post again in this thread- or any of my threads for that matter. It's a shame you have nothing better to do, wow.

To those of you with helpful info, i APPRECIATE IT GREATLY!


EDIT: Update..the mechanic who installed the 2nd new thermostat and the waterpump DID in fact perform the HG test involving the dye.
Sorry buddy, didn't mean to piss you off. I must have missed the part about you letting it set. I honestly didn't see that. And my first post had some good information about the different tests you can do to your engine to check for a bad head gasket. A lot of the tools you may be able to buy pretty cheap and do the tests yourself. It may save you some money. Or you may even have a buddy that has a leakdown tester or combustion leak detector.

I'm really sorry, I must have misread the post somewhere.
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Old 01-26-2006, 10:01 PM   #19
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Subaru cooling systems are pretty tough. If everything is functioning properly, you shouldn't be able to overheat your car under the most extreme conditions. So whenever it does overheat, you know you have a problem somewhere. So I know for a fact it's not your driving style. Hopefully it is just a head gasket and not a cracked block.
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Old 01-26-2006, 10:04 PM   #20
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np solbey, it just heats me when people make assumptions, no biggie. and thanks for the good info.
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Old 01-26-2006, 10:08 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomSubie_FL
np solbey, it just heats me when people make assumptions, no biggie. and thanks for the good info.
Yeah, I honestly didn't see that part about leaving it set. It heats me up when people still drive their car with problems like that! So I will admit I was in the wrong. Hopefully things work out for you and it's not that expensive of a fix.
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Old 01-26-2006, 10:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by short block
look for crack at #4 cyl this is in a tech bult
Yup, thats the one: #4 I've seen three of'm cracked now.
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Old 01-26-2006, 11:41 PM   #23
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Good info. Hope I didn't steer you wrong.
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Old 01-27-2006, 12:46 AM   #24
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First comment, it was fine UNTIL a dealer worked on the cooling system.

My first engine did the same thing. Car had ~96K miles on it when I had some other work done to it. I figured, "What the heck, has a cooling system flush done at the Subaru dealer."

When I got it back, I had overheat issues.

That was just after I joined some Subaru forums and heard flushing horror stories and HG issues.

I have rarely seen "classic" blown HG symptoms in a Suby engine. But, I have ALWAYS seen bubbles in the overflow tank when the car is running and the coolant is warm/hot.

So, I, like most here figure you have a blown HG or a possible cracked block.
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Old 01-27-2006, 03:47 AM   #25
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Your symptoms are identical to my second HG failure. I was on a 530-miles-away-from-home road trip and the temp gauge spiked while sitting at a redlight in Missouri. Started driving and the temp went down (I had both vents and the scoop open).

This went on the whoelt rip (I kept adding coolant as it blew out). As soon as I got back, I took the car to my mechanic who spent 3 hours riving the car around to try to get it to overheat to run the die test. He finally got the engine to overheat and it returned a positive for exhaust gases in the coolant. It turns out that the cause was a tradition HG failure (not the notorious Subaru one) with a very small leak in the HG... it was only under the perfect circumstances that the piston would push enough exhaust into the coolant to overheat it.

Don't automatically conclude that it is a failed block... but you can rest assured that you have exhaust gases mixing with the coolant either through a failed engine or a failed HG.
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