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Old 01-30-2006, 09:00 PM   #1
resident1155
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Default The I-Speed Reflash Breakdown

I was just catching up on I-Speed's progress with the 2.5RS reflash. Apparently they are close to having it fully compatiblie with I/H/E/C. Although, their recent dyno results are a bit of a turn off. I do not care enough to post on that 25rs.com thread for obvious reasons. Anyways here is what I-speed says about a particular issue regarding intakes:

"We would strongly suggest keeping the big black box (we like to call it the torque box) at the throttle body and inserting a 3 inch intake from the side of it to the fender. If someone wanted to make a high quality one that might be worth doing. We have been seeing that with the big torque box removed you will lose upwards of about 25-30 ft/lbs of low end torque while only gaining about 5 horsepower up top. If you were to run with the torque box you will still gain the top end power while keeping the low end torque"

So, essentially an aftermarket intake would allow you to lose 25-30 ft/lbs with their reflash . I don't mean to be rude but...I don't know many people that would pay $350 for 5hp and a decrease of 25 ft/lbs of low end power. Our cars need to maintain that low end power. Now I could put the stock airbox back on my car but...then I'd have to sell my intake and lose money on it.

If I scrood something up with my interpretation of the dynos somebody slap me upside the head. What I am trying to do here is get a better understanding of what this reflash does and keep everyone updated with their progress.

Dyno Results:


Here is the dyno showing stock vs. intake+exhaust (no reflash)


And here is the dyno showing stock reflash vs. intake+exhaust reflash
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Old 01-31-2006, 09:23 AM   #2
deuce.five
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Good to know. I knew my 3" nipple in the airbox wasn't "bling" but it makes gobs of torque!

This would be the Ganzflow 3" nipple mod as seen on imprezars.com.
simple and very effective.
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:16 AM   #3
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Without knowing EXACTLY which intake those tests were done with, this means nothing. Making a blanket statement that intakes are bad on our cars just doesn't cut it for me. They say that "if" someone were to make a high quality tuned intake it might be different. That asserts that there isn't one on the market. Unless someone can verify that this intake is a Cobb intake, this information means nothing to me personally...
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:25 AM   #4
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I know I am double posting, but wanted to add some empirical evidence to support my assertions...

I just visited Cobb's site and their stage 1 power package with CAI does lose about 1-2.5 (not 25!) ft/lb of torque between3100- 3500rpm versus stock. But they more than make up for it by 3700 with a 7ft/lb gain by 4100rpm. My own personal dyno graphs for my car do concur with this information that Cobb has published.

But since my cams don't come on until about 3500rpm and once I clear that, I am never below it againm what do I care.? his information from I-Speed means nothing to me personally and shouldn't bother anyone with a Cobb intake...

Now someone with the E-bay intake or the injen unit, etc might have the issues I-Speed raises. But you will have to do your own homework on that one...
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:32 AM   #5
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They used to have info on a customers car that they'd tested it on and I'd offered up my wheels with mods and a dyno sheet as a test vehicle way back but they didn't use it; the results would have been informative at least for the NA crowd.

CAI---Ganz
Headers---Borla
Exhaust---Stromung SS header-back
Lightened pulley---Mr Josh

Likes---torque curve, responsiveness
Dislikes---SOA does not offer a complete tested NA pkg upgrade

Dyno-jet 140hp/155tq

Thanks for posting the info Matt.
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:35 AM   #6
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hmmm that's what I thought, 25-30 is a BIG number!
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:46 AM   #7
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i'd like to see a dyno plot of the black box with 3" extension vs. 2.5" extension.

i am running a 2.5" elbow and 2.5" abs extension to the fender. i was going to make a 3" unit but the airbox that I bought came cracked, so i'm going to have to make major repairs before i can use it in a 3" modded torque box.
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:52 AM   #8
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Apologies, but aren't we still waiting for some serious evidence that the "torque box" does something more than allow for a good-sized flat filter?
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:27 PM   #9
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regardless, the effects are clearly shown in the dyno- whether it's the large flat filter or the volume of the box, it doesn't really matter- it makes a significantly larger amount of power throughout the rev range when compared to a J-bend and cone filter on the stock ecu, and now we are seeing the same result with a reflash.
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson
I know I am double posting, but wanted to add some empirical evidence to support my assertions...

I just visited Cobb's site and their stage 1 power package with CAI does lose about 1-2.5 (not 25!) ft/lb of torque between3100- 3500rpm versus stock. But they more than make up for it by 3700 with a 7ft/lb gain by 4100rpm. My own personal dyno graphs for my car do concur with this information that Cobb has published.

But since my cams don't come on until about 3500rpm and once I clear that, I am never below it againm what do I care.? his information from I-Speed means nothing to me personally and shouldn't bother anyone with a Cobb intake...

Now someone with the E-bay intake or the injen unit, etc might have the issues I-Speed raises. But you will have to do your own homework on that one...
Matt,

I will say we did NOT test a Cobb Intake system. We did test a 3 inch OD pipe from the intake to the fender well, as this seems to be a very common setup for the RS community. The Cobb Intake is different and might have more beneficial results, but we can not confirm or deny this.

Note: At speed (on the highway, etc...) the car might act completely different, due to airflow dynamics. You will more than likley feel this loss at low speeds or from a standstill, as this was how the intaje was tested...

---
In the end, please take everything with a grain of salt, we test in a low air speed enviroment under certain repeatable conditions. These might be different conditions than what you may experience when driving, so we suggest using this information as a stepping stone so you can do your own research and enjoy your vehicle. If you find something different do let us know as we are always interested.

Cheers,
William T. Knose Jr.
Lead Programmer
I-Speed USA

Last edited by I-Speed USA; 01-31-2006 at 02:21 PM. Reason: Incorrect Information: P.S. The bottom dyno chart is comparing a Stock RS w/ Reflash vs. I/E w/o Reflash
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Old 01-31-2006, 01:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Speed USA
P.S. The bottom dyno chart is comparing a Stock RS w/ Reflash vs. I/E w/o Reflash
And which is which? Both are horrible numbers (leaving alone that they're "corrected" numbers).

And why not compare things that matter like stock vs stock w/reflash? And stock vs. i/e only? And i/e vs. i/e w/reflash?

The comparison above is helpful to noone, though it IS funny that they're around the same hp levels.
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Old 01-31-2006, 01:02 PM   #12
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Bill,
Thanks for the comments. I can always count on you to be frank and open. to be honest, my biggest concern when reading this thread was that you might not want to do the reflash for my car with a Cobb intake on it. I will be in touch in the near future. The heads have become this long drawn out affair and once they are installed, I can move forward with working with you on the tuning aspect of it...
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Old 01-31-2006, 01:31 PM   #13
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I-speed: Any eta on the IHE (no cams here) and the p0420 fix?
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Old 01-31-2006, 02:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Complex
And which is which? Both are horrible numbers (leaving alone that they're "corrected" numbers).

And why not compare things that matter like stock vs stock w/reflash? And stock vs. i/e only? And i/e vs. i/e w/reflash?

The comparison above is helpful to noone, though it IS funny that they're around the same hp levels.
I was mistaken on the information I put up. I apologize for the confusion.

In any case if you would like to know why this comparison has been posted you might want to ask the person that posted it. You are a "moderator" correct? You should be able to figure that one out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpedal
I-speed: Any eta on the IHE (no cams here) and the p0420 fix?
As for an ETA, it is just one of those things we hope to get done sooner than later and it never seems to pan out as planned. One things leads to another, leads to another... I prefer not to give an idea and get everyon's hopes up right now, until we have fully tested it.

Cheers,
Bill
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Old 01-31-2006, 02:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow
Apologies, but aren't we still waiting for some serious evidence that the "torque box" does something more than allow for a good-sized flat filter?
the way it was explained to me is that it acts like a plenum.
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Old 01-31-2006, 02:49 PM   #16
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...I've used my cold-air stock airbox since 2000. You should see a stock RS' dyno plot on that same unit. I have more torque at 2,000rpm than a stocker does at it's peak, USING THE STOCK AIRBOX. Anything with just a tubular intake on it doesn't make this much torque down low. There's something about that damn box.

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Old 01-31-2006, 03:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Speed USA
As for an ETA, it is just one of those things we hope to get done sooner than later and it never seems to pan out as planned. One things leads to another, leads to another... I prefer not to give an idea and get everyon's hopes up right now, until we have fully tested it.
No problemo. Do holler when ready though
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Old 01-31-2006, 06:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resident1155/Ispeed USA
We have been seeing that with the big torque box removed you will lose upwards of about 25-30 ft/lbs of low end torque while only gaining about 5 horsepower up top.
Maybe there's something different with the newer cars, but I can say based on personal experience this just isn't the case. A 25-30ftlb loss of torque in the low/mid-range would be hugely noticeable, particularly in day-to-day driving. Where are all the posts from people complaining about their intakes? There are dozens and dozens of guys on this board who've installed Cobb, Injen, WeaponR, Ebay, etc intakes - if all of these intakes cause this huge loss of low end there would be threads all over the place complaining about it. I've also seen dyno results for intakes on SOHC cars and my own DOHC car, and have never seen such negative results.

With that said, I don't think Ispeed is lying - what would they have to gain by doing so? - but I do think there's something wrong with their dyno results or dyno techniques.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ispeed USA
Note: At speed (on the highway, etc...) the car might act completely different, due to airflow dynamics. You will more than likley feel this loss at low speeds or from a standstill, as this was how the intaje was tested...

---
In the end, please take everything with a grain of salt, we test in a low air speed enviroment under certain repeatable conditions. These might be different conditions than what you may experience when driving...
Power is power. I don't know what "airflow dynamics" are going to magically make an engine perform completely different when the car's in motion. We're not talking ram air or anything here.

Hamfist - Edit, nevermind, looked at the picture more closely and now I get it.

Edit: It's not perfect, but here's a stock vs. stock w/reflash created by picking numbers off the two graphs in the original post. It would seem that a graph like this would be much more useful than the other graphs, but I guess it would be awfully hard to create it.


Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan

Last edited by Patrick Olsen; 01-31-2006 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 01-31-2006, 06:51 PM   #19
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From their site, this is stock vs. stock w/reflash:

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Old 01-31-2006, 09:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen
With that said, I don't think Ispeed is lying - what would they have to gain by doing so? - but I do think there's something wrong with their dyno results or dyno techniques.
Like you said we have nothing to gain, our main priorities are the STi's (sorry RS's). So you could be completely correct, though without any sort of facts it is hard to say something without facts to back it up. I would like to see other dyno charts to compare our results with, it would be worth everyones times. Maybe there are difference in some other aspect of the vehicles, the dyno's, or something else.

Cheers,
William T. Knose Jr.
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Old 01-31-2006, 10:33 PM   #21
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I'm running a snorkelless '95 intake system on my RS swaped L, and it does lack torque compaired to the stock airbox at around 3000rpms...

But, its a smoother power delivery and sounds better So I use it instead.
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Old 02-01-2006, 12:56 AM   #22
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Here's two things regarding my car on dynographs we can actually recognize...



(redline) My car vs another 00 RS (blue line).

A few details.

My car was still on gasoline at this time. It used then the same stock air box intake I have now. If anything, it's been the most consistent part present in all my runs on this same dyno. Even on gas, there's still a 25hp ft-lb difference in torque. On ethanol? I kill that one even worse.

The "other" RS had the j-tube intake. He also had Borla headers, random tech cat, and 3 inch exhaust. I have my custom tri-ys, 2.5in cat section and 3 inch exhaust. We both have the same lightweight crank pulleys and stock flywheels in this snapshot. We both have the same Torquechip 2. He used more bolt-ons, while I experimented with re-engineered stock parts. Now with my car on ethanol, I stomp this one even worse.

This seems to drive home the point even better if you know what you're looking at.



It was one of those "dramatic effect pictures" worth showing. The redline is my car on alcohol vs a stock 02 RS. The disparities should be readily evident. It's not fair from start to finish. Both of these other cars are 5spds like mine, too. Notice that 40whp difference at 6,000rpm? I'm at 140whp at that point and the stocker is at a bit less than 100whp. It's not a coincidence. I'm using the stock airbox there, too. I know of no other n/a subaru anywhere in this area that truely needs bigger injectors other than mine. If I-speed can tune my car on E85 alcohol with 550cc STI injectors and a supercharger, I'm all ears. I prefer doing it myself, but I really don't know if that's possible, Bill. I hear the licensing with reflashing is very finnicky. Are you working with Harvey at Super-Rupair? I can go there a lot easier.

....not bad for barey $1000 worth of work, huh?
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Old 02-01-2006, 01:00 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Speed USA
Like you said we have nothing to gain, our main priorities are the STi's (sorry RS's). So you could be completely correct, though without any sort of facts it is hard to say something without facts to back it up. I would like to see other dyno charts to compare our results with, it would be worth everyones times. Maybe there are difference in some other aspect of the vehicles, the dyno's, or something else.

Cheers,
William T. Knose Jr.
I think all of us RS owners are thankful that I-speed has taken the time to develop a reflash for our cars. I am satisfied with the progress however minimal it may be.

Thanks to Complex btw for clearing up the confusion about the graphs.

Last edited by resident1155; 02-01-2006 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 02-01-2006, 09:27 AM   #24
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the stock vs stock w/reflash is a better comparison, and pretty impressive. It looks like gains are as much as 11HP and 11TQ which is pretty nice improvement on a totally unmodded car.

I'd like to see a I/H/E vs. I/H/E w/reflash graph. If I could see the same gains or larger on my modded car I would buy this in a second.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:44 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce.five
I'd like to see a I/H/E vs. I/H/E w/reflash graph. If I could see the same gains or larger on my modded car I would buy this in a second.
Buy vaporware? How is eternal R&D packaged these days?

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