Solo2 and Alchy Injection?

[ScoobyTodd]

I've reviewed the Solo2 rules several times and can't find anything on the use of alcohol/methanol injection.

Anyone have any thoughts or a link to where it specifically states what class alch. injection would place me in?

Thanks,
Todd

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[Homemade WRX]

I vaguely recall a thread on this not too long ago...you may want to check...I was wondering about this too...but haven't started searching yet

edit: read rule 14.10.F don't know how old this is
http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/sp.html


another with a cooler rule setup...kind of a check list
http://www.autocross.com/tr/carclassing.shtml

[SloRice]

I believe it is not legal in any class because it is considered an alternative fuel source. Kind of like nitrous. But you can run water injection (depending on the class)

[ChrisW]

Assuming that alky injection falls under water injection, you can run in BSP

See section 15.10.F

you can download the 2006 rules here
http://www.scca.org/_filelibrary/Fil...solo_rules.pdf

[Templar]

Alcohol or Methanol injection does not fall under water injection. The key part of water injection is H2O. Other forms of injection fall into some pretty shady rules. It counts as part of the fuel load and in street modified, you can add anything provided it is a chemical that is also found in fuels. Unfortunately, methanol and other forms of alcohol aren't found in any modern pump fuels that I am aware of, and it is therefore illegal in SM. I don't know about the fuel limitations in the full prepared and modified classes.

[Calamity Jesus]

E85 (85% ethyl alcohol / 15% petrol) can be pumped as a gas alternative in several regions of the US. I think you could make a very valid argument that alcohol injection could be legal.

[PhilC]

Originally Posted by Templar

Unfortunately, methanol and other forms of alcohol aren't found in any modern pump fuels that I am aware of, and it is therefore illegal in SM.

Most winter blend gasoline used in the northern United States contains ethanol in some percentage and in areas with EPA restrictions like north-eastern Ohio it is actually tough to find gasoline even in the summer that does not contain a percentage (as much as 12% at BP stations) of ethanol.

My thoughts: From a safety perspective I would say it is not allowed in Solo II at all, flammable liquids or oxygenates that are not stored in the fuel system but are in the car are a potential hazard, it's why nitrous bottles have to be removed from the car even if they aren't hooked up. From a rules perspective I think that water injection is clearly allowed in SP, P, M and SM but I don't think I'd chance the alky injection without a clarification on whether it's allowed. How much more overhead against detonation can alky provide compared to straight water?

[hotrod]

Up to 10% ethanol is legal as a DOT approved motor fuel anywhere in the United States. Up to 10% ethanol is listed as an acceptable fuel in your owners manual.
E85 is also a DOT approved fuel (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) and is sold throughout the country as a motor fuel.
Refiners are required to use ethanol in fuels in certain areas due to emissions laws but can choose to use it as an octane enhancer as well ( which is what happened when Katrina hit -- lots of additional ethanol was blended for a while to streatch available fuel stocks)

I think you should be able to make a verystrong case for use of ethanol in your water injection system. Methanol is not so clear.

Low concentrations of alcohol in water are not flammable, and pose no safety hazard.

Larry

[crystalhelix]

Originally Posted by PhilC

My thoughts: From a safety perspective I would say it is not allowed in Solo II at all, flammable liquids or oxygenates that are not stored in the fuel system but are in the car are a potential hazard, it's why nitrous bottles have to be removed from the car even if they aren't hooked up. From a rules perspective I think that water injection is clearly allowed in SP, P, M and SM but I don't think I'd chance the alky injection without a clarification on whether it's allowed. How much more overhead against detonation can alky provide compared to straight water?

+1....

Having a non-spec fuel container in the trunk with something flammable==bad

[KC]

Originally Posted by hotrod

Up to 10% ethanol is legal as a DOT approved motor fuel anywhere in the United States. Up to 10% ethanol is listed as an acceptable fuel in your owners manual.
E85 is also a DOT approved fuel (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) and is sold throughout the country as a motor fuel.
Refiners are required to use ethanol in fuels in certain areas due to emissions laws but can choose to use it as an octane enhancer as well ( which is what happened when Katrina hit -- lots of additional ethanol was blended for a while to streatch available fuel stocks)

I think you should be able to make a verystrong case for use of ethanol in your water injection system. Methanol is not so clear.

Low concentrations of alcohol in water are not flammable, and pose no safety hazard.

Larry

Whoa, wait a minute here.

As crystalhelix and others have siad, and maybe you're not getting the point...

There's a difference between using it in your gas tank/fuel cell vs. having it in a separate container for direct injection.

Having it as part of pump gas, or added to your fuel tank is what the rules allow. The rules do not make a case for additonal containers/enclosures to hold the mixture.

--kC

[silver arrow]

I would love alk inj.

[hotrod]

There's a difference between using it in your gas tank/fuel cell vs. having it in a separate container for direct injection.

Having it as part of pump gas, or added to your fuel tank is what the rules allow. The rules do not make a case for additonal containers/enclosures to hold the mixture.

No I understand your view perfectly I just disagree with it.

1. Water injection is explicitly allowed. ( by inference all the normal and customary equipment and components are legal, including the separate holding tank)
2. It is common knowledge that most water injection systems use partial mixtures of water and alcohol. (the defacto standard for mixture for over 60 years has been 50/50 mix of water and an alcohol. Usually methanol but ethanol has also been widely used even during WWII). Since they do not put an explicit water only provision in the rules, than any customary mixture should be legal)

To do so would be like making it illegal to fill your tires with nitrogen but compressed air is accepable.

3. Intercoolers are un-restricted -- by definition water injection is an internal coolant ie it is a type of intercooler, and part of the intercooler system.
4. In low alcohol mixtures the fluid is not flamable.
5. If ethanol is legal in the fuel, then there is no logical reason why it should be illegal to put it into the intake air charge by other means.

Larry

[AUTOwrXER]

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Fehrman [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:15 AM
To: Doug Gill
Subject: Water injection in SP


Doug,
This should be an easy one for you, but I want to make 100% sure before I
start final tuning of the car. The SP rules permit water injections
systems. Is water the only thing that can be sprayed? As I'm sure you are
aware, many people use water blended with alcohol in these systems. I don't
see an allowance for the alcohol, so I'm assuming that only water can be
injected. Is that correct?

Regards,
Joel Fehrman
Atlanta Region Solo Chairperson



Hi, Joel,

I'm glad you have so much confidence in me, but I may ruin my rep answering this one.

As you already noted, 15.10.F says, "Intake water injection systems are allowed." Some may argue
that the system is allowed but it doesn't say it has to be just plain water. But then if it was
injecting more than water, wouldn't it really be more than a water injection system? That's what
the rule states.

3.6.B has a sentence that says, "Oxygen and/or nitrogen bearing additives are prohibited, except
for those originally present in service station pump fuel." Alcohol is an oxygen-bearing
additive and can be present in pump fuel, but does it have to be in the fuel to be used?

I personally think it's a twisted interpretation to say that you can inject a water/alcohol mix
into the intake. But I don't know what a protest committee or even the SEB will think when they
examine the text of the Rules. I think it may be a split decision when/if first asked.

There have been some people suggesting that propane can be injected into a diesel engine because
it's a fuel that's specifically allowed with no restrictions except for safety. The SEB is
changing the rule to restrict it to gas-engines converted to propane, not an additive (or
something along those lines).

I may be completely off base, too (I know you're shocked!). The SEB may not really care since it
is a gasoline additive in some applications.

I'll be glad to send this to them if you'd like an "official" clarification. I just don't know
how long it will take (they are covered up).

Let me know.


- Doug

Doug Gill
SCCA Technical Manager, Solo
PO Box 19400
Topeka, KS 66619-0400
1-800-770-2055

[crystalhelix]

Write a letter to the SEB, I am sure though that unless it's in your gas tank they aren't going to budge. Oh, and common knowledge doesn't apply. If it doesn't say you can, you can't is the rule of thumb. And it doesn't say anywhere, water mixed with alcohol is OK. You're waiting till 2007 if you can get the rule changed anyways. I notice alchy is the new "black" lately in the EM forums but most people just stick to the good stuff and run C16.

-J

[sciolist]

Joel, did you ask Doug to pursue an SEB clarification?

One issue that comes to mind is this: Water injection is legal in SP, which obviously implies that some of the cars using it will be street driven. It's not practical to use a straight water injection system in some areas of the country because the water will freeze. Would SEB rule against something that gave some drivers an advantage based on climate? The argument could be made that Solo II events are not generally run in sub-freezing temperatures. I wonder if they would hold that DD cars from lower temperature localities who did use meth on the street would have to use straight water at race events. Seems like this would change the tuning parameters a bit, but I guess not all that much.

[silver arrow]

Doug,

Would you see any gains with just water?

[AUTOwrXER]

Originally Posted by sciolist

Joel, did you ask Doug to pursue an SEB clarification?

I didn't. His response was in line with my expectations, so I figured I would bug the SEB on bigger things (like allowing boost in SP).

[AUTOwrXER]

Originally Posted by silver arrow

Doug,

Would you see any gains with just water?

I'm not Doug, but yes, I did see gains with water and pump fuel on stock boost levels. I did not see gains with C16 and water at the stock boost level, but I think it may make a difference when the boost is turned up. When we get the car together and back on the dyno next month I'll know more about the effects of water with race gas (which burns cooler because of the lead content), but I can say that it certainly had a benefit on pump gas.

-Joel

[ChrisW]

Originally Posted by sciolist

Joel, did you ask Doug to pursue an SEB clarification?

One issue that comes to mind is this: Water injection is legal in SP, which obviously implies that some of the cars using it will be street driven. It's not practical to use a straight water injection system in some areas of the country because the water will freeze. Would SEB rule against something that gave some drivers an advantage based on climate? The argument could be made that Solo II events are not generally run in sub-freezing temperatures. I wonder if they would hold that DD cars from lower temperature localities who did use meth on the street would have to use straight water at race events. Seems like this would change the tuning parameters a bit, but I guess not all that much.

To prevent freezing, many people I have read about who are known to use water injection use washer fluid instead. and hey, it's got alky too, and keeps your intake clean to boot

[crystalhelix]

Originally Posted by silver arrow

Doug,

Would you see any gains with just water?

ninja edit: must learn to read the rest of the thread before posting

[AUTOwrXER]

I just don't keep my car in places where it gets below freezing. I only use water wetter in the coolant system as well. Autocrossing and ice racing are two different things. I don't think freezing conditions is a reason to allow alcohol in SP. The "S" is only theoretical anyway, as none of the top cars double as daily drivers.

[sciolist]

Originally Posted by AUTOwrXER

I just don't keep my car in places where it gets below freezing. I only use water wetter in the coolant system as well. Autocrossing and ice racing are two different things. I don't think freezing conditions is a reason to allow alcohol in SP. The "S" is only theoretical anyway, as none of the top cars double as daily drivers.

Ice racing? I imagine you're aware that a considerable portion of the country is situated above the 35th parallel. It will very likely still be below freezing in the morning shade when our local events start in late April... and then up to the mid 80's in the afternoon sun.

I understand that the Solo II rule set is largely aimed at the top cars, but there is also a general idea of inclusiveness built in. I think the SCCA is keenly aware that it can not afford to cater only to the most advanced drivers. My understanding is that some degree of effort is made for the rules to work for all areas of the country at the local level.

This topic is of interest to me because I suspect that we are going to have some issues in the Oregon Region now that boost has been deregulated in SP. I'm not using injection (yet) because I doubt that it really offers any performance gains, at least not that justify the cost and complexity. I also don't think I need the extra safety, which is likely the main benefit.

Anyway, our state's climate is essentially divided into two zones by the Cascades. Those who use injection systems on the west side of the mountains typically use water. East siders often use alcohol. Legitimate or not, I'm anticipating some conflict when this comes to a head, so of course an SEB clarification would be helpful.

[AUTOwrXER]

Originally Posted by sciolist

Ice racing? I imagine you're aware that a considerable portion of the country is situated above the 35th parallel. It will very likely still be below freezing in the morning shade when our local events start in late April... and then up to the mid 80's in the afternoon sun.

I understand that the Solo II rule set is largely aimed at the top cars, but there is also a general idea of inclusiveness built in. I think the SCCA is keenly aware that it can not afford to cater only to the most advanced drivers. My understanding is that some degree of effort is made for the rules to work for all areas of the country at the local level.

This topic is of interest to me because I suspect that we are going to have some issues in the Oregon Region now that boost has been deregulated in SP. I'm not using injection (yet) because I doubt that it really offers any performance gains, at least not that justify the cost and complexity. I also don't think I need the extra safety, which is likely the main benefit.

Anyway, our state's climate is essentially divided into two zones by the Cascades. Those who use injection systems on the west side of the mountains typically use water. East siders often use alcohol. Legitimate or not, I'm anticipating some conflict when this comes to a head, so of course an SEB clarification would be helpful.

OK, then write the SEB. I still think it's ridiculous to say that alcohol should be allowed because water freezes. I use the washer reservoir for the water tank, and there is no way in hell that that water freezes when the engine is running. Add the water before your runs. The SP ruleset isn't designed for your daily driver. Furthermore, you have the option to not run water at all, and then you don't have to worry about it.

[sciolist]

Originally Posted by AUTOwrXER

OK, then write the SEB. I still think it's ridiculous to say that alcohol should be allowed because water freezes. I use the washer reservoir for the water tank, and there is no way in hell that that water freezes when the engine is running. Add the water before your runs. The SP ruleset isn't designed for your daily driver. Furthermore, you have the option to not run water at all, and then you don't have to worry about it.

Joel, just for the record I generally agree with you. I'm only anticipating what I think alcohol injectors are going to say.

[AUTOwrXER]

Originally Posted by sciolist

Joel, just for the record I generally agree with you. I'm only anticipating what I think alcohol injectors are going to say.

Right on. If it was allowed I'd be the first to run it